The Wilderness, PvP, & Risk vs Reward

[Wee Man 1,349]

This is a long one so a quick tl;dr: Wildy risk vs reward is scuffed. People misunderstand the role of the wild. It should have the best xp/gp rates in the game. PvMers/Skillers need to get over themselves.

 

It's been no secret that the wildy hasn't been as active as it was in previous years and that trend doesn't look to be changing any time soon. 10-12 years ago you could easily run PK trips 24/7, if you really wanted, and find a lot of people to kill for loot or genuinely scrap with in both F2P and P2P. Nowadays you'd be lucky to find someone killing one of the bosses (which suck btw). The game itself isn't dying, player growth is trending upwards and that looks to be getting another sharp increase from the release on Steam. So why is this the case?

 

The sad fact is that the risk vs reward balance is just so fucking bad in that area of the game that nobody really wants to step foot in there unless they're already established pkers. F2P is especially bad because people really don't get exposed to that side of the game much anymore due in part to the release of bonds and  obviously that there's really nothing to do there. I believe the wild should offer some of the best profit and XP rates in the entire game but opponents of that idea think that the pkers should fight other pkers and stop trying to "lure" PvM/Skillers into the wild to feast on. This is a misunderstanding of what the wilderness is supposed to be. The wild isn't supposed to be there just for PKers to 1v1 in fair matchups showcasing their skill like it's the Deadman mode finals. It's there to be an incredibly dangerous area of the game, balanced around the fact that someone might come along and kill you for your stuff and the competitive PvP aspect is a by-product of that.

 

For our scene to grow the wild needs to be active, there needs to be rewarding content to take part in for all kinds of players to build that initial activity for wildy PvP to thrive on. Some examples of when that has been the case from when I played would be back when EP was introduced or when the Rev caves came out in OSRS. Those 2 updates were extremely profitable for players and we saw a huge increase in activity in the wild (although rev caves was concentrated on a cave rather than the actual wild), granted they were abused to fuck due to their shoddy implementation but the fact that the activity shot up because they were extremely profitable is the key idea I'm taking away from that.

 

PvMers/Skillers need to get over the idea of pigeonholing themselves into one part of the game and writing off everything else. If they'd take the time to think they'd realise that most PvP players actually take part in almost every part of the game and have decent accounts. If they don't want to PvP that's fine, they can stay away from it but don't then turn around and say that because you don't want to take part in it that any update promoting that should be voted against. Jagex need to realise that listening to the majority of these players from social media is blinding them from the obvious solutions. Make the wilderness great again by adding content that people actually want to do. Nobody wants to go kill Callisto for 1m an hour when Zulrah and Vorkath exist in private little safe areas for much more money.

 

What do you guys think? Should the risk vs reward balanced be overhauled in the wild or do you think the PvMers and Skillers have a point? Are my topics boring and too long? Will I ever join the hub discord?

 

IMAGINE WRITING PARAGRAPHS ABOUT OSRS IN 2021 LMFAO

[Mk 17 149]

Yea seems pretty strange those wild bosses drop absolute shit stuff

 

should be a place for best xp gains possible in lots of skills and also have good money making methods. How the chaos altar is I think is quite good as it forces people to kill fellas and pkers can fight pkers there. 

[Sus 136]

I agreed with the tldr 

[Pietru 1,234]

With most items falling off in price everyday it's really no surprise that nobody goes into wildy anymore;

 

I'm not really one for pking but I do agree with what you said, wildy is now only used for one off stuff (mage cape/mage cape 2, wildy diary) and most likely never touched again. Jaggy need to introduce either a really good exp place (not resource area LUL) or a huge gold mine like revs once was in my opinion

[Wee Man 1,349]

2 minutes ago, Pietru said:

With most items falling off in price everyday it's really no surprise that nobody goes into wildy anymore;

They were never really up there in the risk vs reward category to be honest with you.

[Venenatis 853]

Jagex as a company needs to grow a pair. They don't have any balls. They're so concerned with the player-base that constantly bitches about how they don't want to feel "forced" into the wilderness. So they literally refuse to update it. I remember having a conversation with someone about how they felt being forced into the wilderness for the best rates made the game feel artificial. If anything the opposite is true, for the sake of not wanting to be grieved, they want the original vision of what the wilderness was meant to be altered for their personal convenience. 

[Da Bazz 715]

What if resources were dropped as noted  (only resources not all items ofc) or there's a way to note items in the wildy? Also increase xp rates so it becomes the best xp / hr if left untouched. That would make players stay longer in the wild with more potential loot. (kind of like how people bring a stack of bones to the chaos altar) I assume that people don't touch any wilderness skilling is not because it's 'dangerous' but because it's insanely inefficient due to how far away everything is from a bank.

 

Wildy bosses need to be way better gp then Zulrah (though that might already be the case. Because unless you have bis for zulrah that boss is shit gp/hr) but also Vorkath.

 

Make some actual fun content in the wild, make the bosses do something. The reason I do CoX, ToB is because it's exciting and requires skill. There's a huge skill ceiling that only few players can reach. For example: my CM solos are 50min - 1hr, someone like boaty does them in like 35-40mins. There's a huge skillgap that I can work on to close. All the wildy bosses do is either hit like a fucking truck so you just eat and pray to guthix you do enough damage or you safe spot them. The skill ceiling is super low and that to me makes it boring, combined with no reward -> dead content.

 

What do you think about shrinking the wilderness? So there's less dead space all over the place? You have to run multiple mini maps to get from one activity to the next.

[Kestas 13]

Wilderness was the most popular when people didn't care about the money or XP. That will never become a thing again.

 

Offering them busted training or moneymaking methods would likely make wilderness more active. And if your intent is to just get as many people in it as possible, that could work. We would, however, have to ignore the insane abuse that would come with those new methods being introduced. Jagex would have to willingly risk the health of the game by introducing something that would likely be more unhealthy than the BH points farming and that sort of stuff. Is it worth it? Maybe in the eyes of a pker, probably not in the eyes of a regular player.

[Wee Man 1,349]

1 hour ago, Kestas said:

Wilderness was the most popular when people didn't care about the money or XP. That will never become a thing again.

 

Offering them busted training or moneymaking methods would likely make wilderness more active. And if your intent is to just get as many people in it as possible, that could work. We would, however, have to ignore the insane abuse that would come with those new methods being introduced. Jagex would have to willingly risk the health of the game by introducing something that would likely be more unhealthy than the BH points farming and that sort of stuff. Is it worth it? Maybe in the eyes of a pker, probably not in the eyes of a regular player.

Understandable but surely there's some sort of balance they can strike with xp/gp per hour updates. Their track record isn't good in that area obviously looking at the two examples I mentioned but I can't believe there's no way to achieve it. Getting as many people in the wild and doing wilderness content is the fundamental building block of all wildy PvP, without it the place is just stagnant and I think rewarding the risk is the right direction to go in.

[Wee Man 1,349]

1 hour ago, Da Bazz said:

What if resources were dropped as noted  (only resources not all items ofc) or there's a way to note items in the wildy? Also increase xp rates so it becomes the best xp / hr if left untouched. That would make players stay longer in the wild with more potential loot. (kind of like how people bring a stack of bones to the chaos altar) I assume that people don't touch any wilderness skilling is not because it's 'dangerous' but because it's insanely inefficient due to how far away everything is from a bank.

 

Wildy bosses need to be way better gp then Zulrah (though that might already be the case. Because unless you have bis for zulrah that boss is shit gp/hr) but also Vorkath.

 

Make some actual fun content in the wild, make the bosses do something. The reason I do CoX, ToB is because it's exciting and requires skill. There's a huge skill ceiling that only few players can reach. For example: my CM solos are 50min - 1hr, someone like boaty does them in like 35-40mins. There's a huge skillgap that I can work on to close. All the wildy bosses do is either hit like a fucking truck so you just eat and pray to guthix you do enough damage or you safe spot them. The skill ceiling is super low and that to me makes it boring, combined with no reward -> dead content.

 

What do you think about shrinking the wilderness? So there's less dead space all over the place? You have to run multiple mini maps to get from one activity to the next.

I think anything that makes the place more fun and rewarding while keeping that risk is only going to be a good thing for activity and the PvP scene at large. I completely agree with your comments on fun content. I only really do Cox (I think I'd enjoy ToB as well once my monkey brain has evolved enough to learn it) during PvM comps because it's enjoyable, GWD/Corp is brain dead by comparison and I'd compare the wildy bosses to the latter.

 

They've got 3 options in regards to getting read of dead space in the wild. They can fill it with content, shrink the map or just limit the wilderness to certain worlds. I think option 1 is the right approach, they just have to make it rewarding enough for the risk you've taken by potentially getting PKed by someone while also putting things in place to prevent abuse or, if there is abuse, act on it quick enough before it becomes a huge problem.

[Howl 947]

Should the risk vs reward balanced be overhauled in the wild or do you think the PvMers and Skillers have a point?

I have a lot of thoughts on this, so I'll try to be concise.

 

I think that there should be better rewards in the wilderness, but I think the game has moved away from that and we're likely stuck with the middling content we have now. There should be serious incentive to go to the game's most dangerous area, while a low/medium/high level of risk based upon the area's rewards. I think two great examples of this are High Altar and black chinchompas. Both are alternative methods that are better than their "safe" counterpart, but have a risk involved. I think Rev caves were incredible at creating organic PvP activity because the reward was so high. In some ways, it may have even been skewed too far. This led to abuse, RWT, etc.

 

The (unfortunate) truth is we've seen a massive shift in the player base from 2010 to now. Players are far more goal-oriented, focusing on skilling and PvMing and max-efficiency. Something you often hear is that PvP seems too difficult to get into. In many ways, this is true. Single pkers are often elitist in gear, account build, and individual skill. Multi pking isn't has hard from an individual skill standpoint, but it can be intimidating from a new player standpoint to find an open cc, discord, or even serious clan. Not to mention the return tab needed to be any use in multi pking.

 

All of this goes to say - what players want doesn't line up with what is likely best for the game. Players want safe, instanced, and efficient content that allows them to more easily reach whatever goal they're working towards. Putting top-level content in the wilderness is repulsive to them because it doesn't line up with their preferred game method. Just like real life, the twitter/reddit mobs have an ever-growing say in the matter.

 

To the argument that pkers should be incentivized to fight other pkers (as I've seen made on reddit numerous times), someone please tell me how you implement this without it being abused heavily?

 

Are my topics boring and too long?

Yes and yes.

 

 

I actually appreciate a well-written topic, but you can go neck yourself after this one

 

Will I ever join the hub discord?

Eh you'll probably cave at some point, if nothing else for the bantz

 

 

 

Edit: missed a contextual word

Edited February 20, 2021 by Howl

[Tika191 1,099]

I've never understood why the drops on something like bear, spider or vetion couldn't be buffed. As people have said, unless you have something specific in mind like pet hunting there's no reason to risk going into the wildy when you've got significantly better $ making methods like vorkath in a risk free environment

 

Rev caves was a good example of how you can increase activity if you give a high enough potential return, although the layout of the caves had its issues. Hopefully wilderness bosses in general can get their drops increased as a start and we can see how that impacts activity

[Wee Man 1,349]

3 minutes ago, Howl said:

Should the risk vs reward balanced be overhauled in the wild or do you think the PvMers and Skillers have a point?

I have a lot of thoughts on this, so I'll try to be concise.

 

I think that there should be better rewards in the wilderness, but I think the game has moved away from that and we're likely stuck with the middling content we have now. There should be serious incentive to go to the game's most dangerous area, while a low/medium/high level of risk based upon the area's rewards. I think two great examples of this are High Altar and black chinchompas. Both are alternative methods that are better than their "safe" counterpart, but have a risk involved. I think Rev caves were incredible at creating organic PvP activity because the reward was so high. In some ways, it may have even been skewed too far. This led to abuse, RWT, etc.

 

The (unfortunate) truth is we've seen a massive shift in the player base from 2010 to now. Players are far more goal-oriented, focusing on skilling and PvMing and max-efficiency. Something you often hear is that PvP seems too difficult to get into. In many ways, this is true. Single pkers are often elitist in gear, account build, and individual skill. Multi pking isn't has hard from an individual skill standpoint, but it can be intimidating from a new player standpoint to find an open cc, discord, or even serious clan. Not to mention the return tab needed to be any use in multi pking.

 

All of this goes to say - what players want doesn't line up with what is likely best for the game. Players want safe, instanced, and efficient content that allows them to more easily reach whatever goal they're working towards. Putting top-level content is repulsive to them because it doesn't line up with their preferred game method. Just like real life, the twitter/reddit mobs have an ever-growing say in the matter.

 

To the argument that pkers should be incentivized other pkers (as I've seen made on reddit numerous times), someone please tell me how you implement this without it being abused heavily?

The altar and chins are in the right direction of where I'd want them to take the wilderness but just not even close to enough. It's supposed to be a dangerous but rewarding place and whether or not that lines up with the player base isn't something that should be considered when looking at the health of the game. If PvP was more active skilling becomes more profitable as well due to the increased demand. They can sit and cry about how they shouldn't be "forced" to PvP all they want, they know deep down how stupid that sounds. Jagex need to seriously get off of Reddit and twitter and stop thinking like them. 

[≈Flukejiver 1,186]

6 hours ago, Sus said:

I agreed with the tldr 

 

[Howl 947]

2 minutes ago, Wee Man said:

The altar and chins are in the right direction of where I'd want them to take the wilderness but just not even close to enough. It's supposed to be a dangerous but rewarding place and whether or not that lines up with the player base isn't something that should be considered when looking at the health of the game. If PvP was more active skilling becomes more profitable as well due to the increased demand. They can sit and cry about how they shouldn't be "forced" to PvP all they want, they know deep down how stupid that sounds. Jagex need to seriously get off of Reddit and twitter and stop thinking like them. 

I don't disagree and if I were a Jagex mod, I would be pushing a real discussion on how much they should be catering to the social media crowds vs how much they should be looking out for the long-term interests of the game. We already have seen this struggle with the recent equipment changes - look at how they caved under pressure. On the flip side, think about other times Jagex has made changes they thought were essential for the game - removing wilderness, EoC, etc.

 

It's a balance and Jagex usually gets it wrong.