The Wilderness, PvP, & Risk vs Reward

[Bobby 70]

I agree with a lot of what Adam said, so I won't retype it. 

 

There really isn't a way to encourage more pking without discouraging people uninterested in pking from entering the wilderness. I think a good idea could be something along what old BH used to be but rather than adding value to a dropped item, add value to the player. Have essentially a similar system with unique drops but increase their chance from dropping for people who've gone on kill streaks or have a higher risk value. 

 

The problem with things like this is that they're easily abused, so I'm not really sure how to counteract that. Unfortunately, as with most PvP games I have played, the playerbase generally brings this upon themselves.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Bobby

[Eric`` 721]

Jagex needs to stop coddling pansys and just put something of worth to chase in the wilderness.

[dnd5 1,017]

It’s about time for another reboot

[Heath 15]

They need to put lot of work into fixing it and they just don’t care. Brawling gloves were an EXCELLENT addition to the game and should be brought back. Idk how but yea 

[Wee Man 1,349]

12 hours ago, Adam_ said:

~removed the text~

So my comment about bonds was just one of the many reasons why I don't think players get exposed to the F2P side of the game anymore. I can understand Jagex not wanting to put a lot of content into F2P what with the botting and the fact it's a free platform to play on but from a PvP standpoint F2P is an ideal place to start to learn how to PK. I hope the steam release bumps the F2P population but if the client is as bad as you say it is, you're probably right, it'll do more harm than good.

 

I've grown incredibly tired of listening to people state that wilderness activity shouldn't be boosted by luring other types of players into it. It's a stance that the morons on Reddit have taken and it's also a stance I've seen taken by Jmods on twitter. That argument has no merit and I disagree with the idea that the wilderness should be a place for pkers to fight. That's not it's function. The people who want to have fair 1v1s don't go into the wilderness looking for them, you tend to find them more around banks on PvP worlds like at the GE. The entire wilderness area has always been built upon the idea of it been dangerous but over time the rewards haven't continued to increase enough relative to content outside of the wild. It has been completely neglected.

 

There's always going to be an argument of abuse when it comes to extreme money making or extreme xp/hr but that's not a job for players to try and solve. It is up to Jagex to introduce content that we need for the wilderness while also curbing the abuse that grows from it by either preventing it from the get go or reacting quickly enough to methods that appear shortly after release instead of ignoring it. Is that an easy job? No it's not but it's what they are paid for and if they want PvP to grow and the wilderness to be active we do need extremely rewarding content.

 

I have to agree with that most players are selfish and will always vote in their own interest. My confusion comes from the fact that PvP content, assuming they have no plans to take part in it, does not effect them in the slightest, so why do they vote no? Why not just skip the vote? There's just too much of an anti PvP bias in the playerbase to the point where voting on the content isn't about the content and rather about sticking it to people who enjoy PvP. 

 

Your comments about clanning in general are pretty accurate. For me multi PvP and being in a clan is the most fun you can have on this game, nothing else comes close. This is a multi player game and clans embody that philosophy entirely. Over the years clans have always had the drama, the beef and occasionally things get taken too far by certain individuals and clans. Sure it can be toxic as fuck and if you don't have a thick skin you'd be chewed up and spat out pretty quickly but I don't agree with the idea that the clans are their own worst enemies, I put that blame at Jagex's feet. I'd also like to mention that this mentality will never change without new blood coming in and doing things a different way which ties back into the idea that the wild needs a massive update to bring it in line with modern day OSRS.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Wee Man

[Adam_ 1,050]

8 hours ago, Wee Man said:

So my comment about bonds was just one of the many reasons why I don't think players get exposed to the F2P side of the game anymore. I can understand Jagex not wanting to put a lot of content into F2P what with the botting and the fact it's a free platform to play on but from a PvP standpoint F2P is an ideal place to start to learn how to PK. I hope the steam release bumps the F2P population but if the client is as bad as you say it is, you're probably right, it'll do more harm than good.

 

I've grown incredibly tired of listening to people state that wilderness activity shouldn't be boosted by luring other types of players into it. It's a stance that the morons on Reddit have taken and it's also a stance I've seen taken by Jmods on twitter. That argument has no merit and I disagree with the idea that the wilderness should be a place for pkers to fight. That's not it's function. The people who want to have fair 1v1s don't go into the wilderness looking for them, you tend to find them more around banks on PvP worlds like at the GE. The entire wilderness area has always been built upon the idea of it been dangerous but over time the rewards haven't continued to increase enough relative to content outside of the wild. It has been completely neglected.

 

There's always going to be an argument of abuse when it comes to extreme money making or extreme xp/hr but that's not a job for players to try and solve. It is up to Jagex to introduce content that we need for the wilderness while also curbing the abuse that grows from it by either preventing it from the get go or reacting quickly enough to methods that appear shortly after release instead of ignoring it. Is that an easy job? No it's not but it's what they are paid for and if they want PvP to grow and the wilderness to be active we do need extremely rewarding content.

 

I have to agree with that most players are selfish and will always vote in their own interest. My confusion comes from the fact that PvP content, assuming they have no plans to take part in it, does not effect them in the slightest, so why do they vote no? Why not just skip the vote? There's just too much of an anti PvP bias in the playerbase to the point where voting on the content isn't about the content and rather about sticking it to people who enjoy PvP. 

 

Your comments about clanning in general are pretty accurate. For me multi PvP and being in a clan is the most fun you can have on this game, nothing else comes close. This is a multi player game and clans embody that philosophy entirely. Over the years clans have always had the drama, the beef and occasionally things get taken too far by certain individuals and clans. Sure it can be toxic as fuck and if you don't have a thick skin you'd be chewed up and spat out pretty quickly but I don't agree with the idea that the clans are their own worst enemies, I put that blame at Jagex's feet. I'd also like to mention that this mentality will never change without new blood coming in and doing things a different way which ties back into the idea that the wild needs a massive update to bring it in line with modern day OSRS.

Yeah I agree that ideally there would be a sizable healthy f2p community and some of it would have involvement in pvp, but I think with how things are now it's just not really possible sadly. The only real dedicated f2p community are all ironmen or other skillers trying to "max" because f2p is the only form of the game which has few to no updates (until this quest being polled I guess) and isn't full of morons buying account services to avoid actually playing the game themselves. I could of course be biased since I didn't have a ton of time on the client before I was able to re-access my account (fortunately) but i've also heard the same opinion from others, not sure if any of the people around here on the client may feel otherwise. I'd really like it if it was big for that part of the community and the game in general, and I really hope it is, or is at least positive, and not a trainwreck. Guess we'll see, fingers crossed.

 

I do agree with you that it's a bit tiring hearing this, but I also understand it to some degree. I think what actually annoys me the most is the large hypocrisy of people claiming they are forced to go into the wilderness for ma2 cape, pets, dpick/certain gear (irons), black chins, altar, etc as if it only happens to them. Pkers obviously have to do a lot that doesn't involve pvp or the wilderness to even get their account into a state where it's ready to pk, and not all of them really care for that understandably. It's not even really unique because there's also a lot of requirements that involve skilling and other stuff for high level pvm, and I know a lot of pvmers who don't really care to do that or pay other people to do it for them, but there seems to be a lot less of an issue of people doing that. I even see people complaining about having to do lms for a rune pouch and it's an entirely safe minigame, VERY ridiculous. Obviously I understand why people feel this way since as I said before it's the only real place you can lose progress and it's directly caused by other players nonetheless, I get why they feel "lured" or "forced' into the wilderness where it's more dangerous than other people being forced to do other safe content to progress their account, but it doesn't really mean you shouldn't be required to. The wilderness is part of the game and you don't really get to opt out entirely of parts of the game. Ultimately there are a lot of people who feel different though and it's Jagex's job to appease them to some degree which is why i'm unsure if there can be a good balance between something causing activity and something that doesn't necessarily fully "force" them into the wilderness. Then again, even if it wasn't as much required as what's currently there, a lot of people would still cry, hard to say.

 

PvP worlds I don't really care for, i'm going to be honest. I've been on them plenty and the vast majority of activity there is plank making bots, 10 iq manchildren who have nothing better to do than rag all day, nerds using clients to risk fight to pay their rent and people luring none of which should be encouraged. I think if more of it got cracked down on than what already happens, they'd be pretty empty. They were considering removing them to consolidate activity into the wilderness mostly but a few people complained and I was disappointed to see they weren't being removed. Some people argue however that most of the people playing on PvP worlds aren't really wilderness pkers so it wouldn't make the wilderness much more if at all more active and it'd just further hurt the PvP community, but I do wonder how much of that portion of the pvp community on pvp worlds are legit or even worth keeping as opposed to individuals essentially killing their own scene on those worlds. Perhaps if they weren't around then there would be more of them going to the wilderness and bumping up activity there to some degree, perhaps not. I think there are definitely some older pkers who prefer going to the wilderness to find 1v1s, or may even set them up beforehand and just use the wilderness as their venue, but that's certainly a minority and as you said, it's not really where people go looking for clean 1v1s. That being said, i'd hope if the wilderness were more significantly active people would prefer to fight someone whose going to fight back and give them an actual fight as opposed to some noob running bones.

 

Yes there's always going to be an argument of abuse but it's also the degree of abuse that's very important to take into consideration. BH wasn't realistically something they could have dealt with in the state it was in. Rev caves also I don't think there was a much better fix for than what they ended up doing. So they're both fixed, but they're also both pretty much dead now. So they aren't really generating any PvP activity are they? I can't think of much that would stop that from happening with any future content with any sort of similar level of rewards so how do they prevent it from ending up in the same spot? You can say it's not the players' problem and it's Jagex's problem but that's not going to fix it or keep anything from going down the same path and at the end of the day there are just some things they can't realistically deal with. If it isn't enticing enough then people won't do it and it's dead content. If it is, it's likely subject to the same level of abuse and if not will likely get there over time, and probably face the same fate as content before it. 

 

I think the next thing you mention is quite hard to address accurately because many people have different reasons for voting no. There are many people including myself who no longer partake in PvP content that generally vote yes to anything that will help that part of the community, but obviously there are lots who do not. Anything that seems like it'll be an upgrade from existing content or items that will end up dragging people to the wilderness will get people who don't want to feel forced to go get it likely to vote no, unless they're the few that want the item bad enough to be willing to suck it up and get it anyways. A lot of weirdos in the completionist community don't really like PvP or the wilderness (don't want to throw shade here but more than one of them has lost a tbow to not being very smart and one of them lied about what happened!) and are very vocal and often times even incredibly toxic towards jmods who want to add pets or any untradeable content considered completionist tasks to PvP content since they don't want to PvP. I know Ayiza has said in the past he feels differently about ironmen being forced to get dpick or pkers being forced to skill/quest than people being forced to get untradeable cosmetic competionist items since they aren't required for any actual gameplay, but they unfortunately have a voice nonetheless. There's also obviously the people who just hate pkers and pvp as you mentioned and vote no at the first sign of it being a pvp related question which is, cringe. There's even people on certain limited accounts who don't like things being made easier for their account builds, I recall imbues being polled at LMS and failing a second time and some people saying they didn't want it to be easier to obtain imbues on an obby mauler lol. This is only really a few of the things i've seen in my time and I don't really agree with any of them whatsoever. Some of these reasons are so odd. I guess the point is that it's not always about sticking it to people who enjoy pvp, but nonetheless generally comes from a very selfish place. Alternatively the PvP community is very fractured - there are bh style pkers, pvp world pkers, multi pkers, single pkers, and not all of them agree with certain things that may not be good for them, but good for others. Obviously rev caves being single+ is good for single pkers minus a few weird bugs or mechanics that can result in your kill getting away, but was a change that really hurt the multi community. I've seen a lot of comments in the past from people who deep wild pk that bh/edge style pking "isn't really pking" or "isn't pvp" so they don't deserve updates, or updates catered to them which may not be useful in deep wild or even somewhat detrimental, should not be a thing. Updates like the pj timer/spec timer and the inability to teleport immediately after speccing are really good for solo pkers or people who pk in certain locations plagued by morons who endlessly spec, tab, pool to refill and repeat, but didn't go over well at all with single pkers and are widely hated in that community. While it may not be as intense the dislike some non pvpers have for pvpers, I certainly don't think these fractures which only get worse the more people argue are of any help to the pvp community at all. 

 

Idk if we'll agree on who is fully to blame for the state of clans. I'd certainly agree Jagex haven't helped, but you also can't look at a lot of what's happened and put that blame on Jagex. What are they supposed to do about crashing? What are they supposed to do about things that happen outside of the game they have no control over? There's very little power in their hands to investigate these things let alone punish for them so people are going to continue doing it and getting away with it because it's become normalized to some degree (in some clans more than others). They could do better with punishing certain individuals for what can be proven, for sure. But pretty much everyone participating in it is making a conscious decision to do so and that's not Jagex's doing. I think we obviously agree things need to be done different, but whose going to do that? Do you think most of the clans around today have any plans to change how they are or how they behave? Do you think most people really have an interest in starting up a new clan to do things different? If Jagex somehow overcame all the issues previously discussed and put out an update that was good for the wilderness/clanning community, I think there's a significant chance most new blood would take one look at all the shit that goes on and peace out. 

[Wee Man 1,349]

5 minutes ago, Adam_ said:

~text wall~

I've heard nothing but bad things about the client from certain Tempest members who have been locked out of the normal ones. I really hope that to a new player that doesn't put them off. I do think F2P could have a resurgence but it requires genuine brand new players joining the game and sticking around in F2P before they take the plunge for membership and that's pretty difficult to achieve these days. Fingers crossed indeed for the steam release.

 

I can see why other players wouldn't want content to be added to the wilderness if they've already made a positive choice to not take part in that area of the game but that's when Jagex need to step in because this really isn't something that should require a vote from every kind of player. I really don't think the arguments against it hold much weight despite being able to see where they're coming from. I completely agree with you on PvP worlds, I'd much rather it be wildy only but that's a bell they can't unring unfortunately without an incredible amount of backlash.

 

BH I wasn't familiar with in the form that ended up getting abused but as for Rev caves there was plenty of other things they could have done, personally I think they shouldn't have ever had it in a cave to begin with. I dont think that would have happened if that was on the surface level of the wilderness in multi somewhere. Either way there's plenty of different ideas open to Jagex to add content and curb the abuse on it before it gets out of control and if there isn't they need to seriously take a look at their dev team and find someone who can do it.

 

As for my stance on clans shooting themselves in the foot, I don't believe crashing is something that needs addressing in the first place, I've never had a problem with the idea of fights getting crashed. Sure it can be annoying if it's happening to you and you can't handle it but If you want clean 1v1s CWA is open to you. For things happening out of game that's a whole different ball game that I really don't think there'd ever be a solution for, again it's just another bell that can't be unrung. The best people can do is protect their online identity and protect their IP address. I think incidents of that happening these days are few and far between in the main scene. I don't believe that kind of stuff was what hurt clans the most though, it definitely hurt the image of PvP players but that's not the reason why new blood stopped appearing, that is definitely Jagex's fault for neglecting that part of the game for far too long.

[Adam_ 1,050]

I think we're probably at the same place both in regards to steam/f2p and regarding arguments as to why content shouldn't be added to the wilderness. Though I definitely think it's important to stay wary of the fact that the community managers are essentially required to take into account all feedback and how it affects everyone, even if it's not a great argument, and this will ultimately have some form of effect on things. We can only really hope that the effect is minimal/doesn't continue to prevent what could be good updates.

 

There is a fair chance that revs wouldn't have had the same issue had they not been underground/in a cave, but I also think there's a fair chance it'd have the same issue anyways. People do the same thing at altar and single strip. The altar I guess is a small enclosure that is easy to defend as well, but the clans that camp single strip trying to make people pay protection money to kill callisto and venenatis kind of suggest that perhaps it's not as easy as just not having it in an enclosure. I feel like once people have learned you can reasonably lock content down for profit, it's as you would say, a bell you can't unring. Not sure what can be done to make it so the content *can't* be locked down apart from what happened with revs and I think most people would not prefer that happen to other content. I don't agree that the lack of available solutions is necessarily a reflection of their dev team, nor that hiring more people would fix the issue. If there is something that can be done i'm confident the existing team can do it, but i'm genuinely unsure if there is too much that can be done without repeating previous mistakes, taking into account the community's tendency to seek to abuse what they can in whatever way possible. 

 

I agree that there are obviously other options as you said for clans that don't enjoy being crashed, but CWA obviously means you aren't in the wilderness contributing to the activity there either. So while that's good for the clan itself, it's not great for the wilderness if everyone ends up getting sick of the crashing and opts to head over to CWA. Obviously ACing is a thing and fortunately there are clans willing to do it, but not sure how long that may continue given that a lot of clans very obviously don't get along very well. I also agree that there's very little they can do about out of game stuff apart from punishing very obvious cases and the people who think it's an intelligent idea to start saying/admitting to things ingame. I do think however that protecting one's identity and IP address is obviously easier said than done especially for people looking to enter the scene, and in some cases that information is already out there due to mistakes made years ago and there's nothing you can do about it. Outside of account recovery it has very little relevance anywhere else ingame than PvP and it's not something that I see most people generally think about or made aware of. Obviously the more the internet becomes part of our lives the more people realize the necessity of doing so, but I think we're not quite to the point where i'd say it's something a majority of people think about. This is something anyone whose been around this part of the community in previous years probably knows quite well by this point, but something that will likely come to bite anyone new looking to get involved in the scene in the ass, HARD. I also don't think the incidents are very few and far between these days, I think it actually happens quite a bit and there are multiple clans doing it, just perhaps not as openly as others. I think the intensity of certain targeted attacks is also much worse, years ago probably the worst thing you'd get was maybe a call to your mom or hit offline for a while but that's not really the line anymore. Jagex neglecting that part of the game definitely contributed to the current state of things, I certainly will not disagree with this. However, I do think what goes on and what certain clan officials do or allow their members to do has had more of an effect than neglect by Jagex in turning away new blood and making longer established individuals lose any desire to continue being part of things, because it stops being a game or fun at some point. Who wants to be in their 20s or even older dealing with someone trying to attack their real life because of who they decide to play a video game with? 

[Adam_ 1,050]

24 minutes ago, Wee Man said:

I've heard nothing but bad things about the client from certain Tempest members who have been locked out of the normal ones. I really hope that to a new player that doesn't put them off. I do think F2P could have a resurgence but it requires genuine brand new players joining the game and sticking around in F2P before they take the plunge for membership and that's pretty difficult to achieve these days. Fingers crossed indeed for the steam release.

 

I can see why other players wouldn't want content to be added to the wilderness if they've already made a positive choice to not take part in that area of the game but that's when Jagex need to step in because this really isn't something that should require a vote from every kind of player. I really don't think the arguments against it hold much weight despite being able to see where they're coming from. I completely agree with you on PvP worlds, I'd much rather it be wildy only but that's a bell they can't unring unfortunately without an incredible amount of backlash.

 

BH I wasn't familiar with in the form that ended up getting abused but as for Rev caves there was plenty of other things they could have done, personally I think they shouldn't have ever had it in a cave to begin with. I dont think that would have happened if that was on the surface level of the wilderness in multi somewhere. Either way there's plenty of different ideas open to Jagex to add content and curb the abuse on it before it gets out of control and if there isn't they need to seriously take a look at their dev team and find someone who can do it.

 

As for my stance on clans shooting themselves in the foot, I don't believe crashing is something that needs addressing in the first place, I've never had a problem with the idea of fights getting crashed. Sure it can be annoying if it's happening to you and you can't handle it but If you want clean 1v1s CWA is open to you. For things happening out of game that's a whole different ball game that I really don't think there'd ever be a solution for, again it's just another bell that can't be unrung. The best people can do is protect their online identity and protect their IP address. I think incidents of that happening these days are few and far between in the main scene. I don't believe that kind of stuff was what hurt clans the most though, it definitely hurt the image of PvP players but that's not the reason why new blood stopped appearing, that is definitely Jagex's fault for neglecting that part of the game for far too long.

forgot to quote i guess but yea reply above 

[Melo C 237]

I like to pk @Wee Man

[@Brian 2,843]

Based on jmod commentary on reddit I believe they're going to heavily water down wilderness to make it a lot less "risky". Unfortunately these changes will pass. The player base that cares about wilderness is now extremely small and insignificant.

[Wee Man 1,349]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Based on jmod commentary on reddit I believe they're going to heavily water down wilderness to make it a lot less "risky". Unfortunately these changes will pass. The player base that cares about wilderness is now extremely small and insignificant.

That would be extremely sad to see and I'll be talking a lot of mad shit on twitter if they bring those kind of proposals up. 

[B4uz 176]

Jagex has at least 3 discords with hundreds of ideas for the pk scene to be waaaaaay better, sadly they don’t care about it and just do whatever.

And yes, the wilderness should have the best rates and the most money p/h so people step into it and actually learn how to defend themselves instead of calling clans to protect them.

[Wee Man 1,349]

39 minutes ago, B4uz said:

Jagex has at least 3 discords with hundreds of ideas for the pk scene to be waaaaaay better, sadly they don’t care about it and just do whatever.

And yes, the wilderness should have the best rates and the most money p/h so people step into it and actually learn how to defend themselves instead of calling clans to protect them.

Woah, I'm not against people calling clans to protect them. I'm all for clan activity being the ultimate goal in all of this but yeah the idea that they'd either have to learn or get involved in PvP to make the most of the content for the best xp/gp rates is the main theme behind any suggestion Jagex should be listening to.

[Adam_ 1,050]

8 hours ago, Brian said:

Based on jmod commentary on reddit I believe they're going to heavily water down wilderness to make it a lot less "risky". Unfortunately these changes will pass. The player base that cares about wilderness is now extremely small and insignificant.

Source(s)? I'm sure what you're saying is quite accurate, just more curious to read it myself so don't want to come off like i'm doubting you lol

1 hour ago, Wee Man said:

Woah, I'm not against people calling clans to protect them. I'm all for clan activity being the ultimate goal in all of this but yeah the idea that they'd either have to learn or get involved in PvP to make the most of the content for the best xp/gp rates is the main theme behind any suggestion Jagex should be listening to.

I think the incentive should be to join the clan, not have it be something where you have to pay them to protect you like what happened at revs. A lot of the people paying for protection have/had zero incentive to get involved in PvP and never ended up doing so. Not sure if that's what Bauz meant or what you were saying but ya