The Wilderness - They just don't seem to get it.

[Wee Man 1,349]

A while back I wrote a topic about my opinions on the wildy , where the issues were and how I think Jagex could fix them. Now on a recent stream a Jmod made a comment (potentially fake but who knows) that's making the rounds on twitter:

 

 

Yes, that's quite obviously a very nutty analogy to make in reference to a 20 year old java game and yes I'd like to think they regret making it but I'm writing this topic because I want to explore the idea of "forcing" people into the wild and where I think that argument falls down. You'll see people making this argument mostly on twitter and reddit and I can kind of see where they're coming from. Players want their accounts to be the best and they want the best gear, best gp methods and the best xp methods available to them to make that happen. Makes perfect sense. The problem is that they want all these things for free and it seems to me that danger and fun have been left behind in favour of efficiency and account progress.

 

Pking and PvP is 95% just for fun and from my point of view it seems that fun is looked at as "xp waste" and that's before you even get into the idea that the PvP community is viewed as incredibly toxic which has some truth to it. The vast majority of players seem to have this kind of thought process when it comes to PvP:

 

1. Dying and losing my stuff sets back my progress.

2. I don't want to take part in content that allows that to happen.

3. The players that do must get off on ruining my "fun" because I'm not there to fight people.

4. Those players are therefore toxic and a cancer to the game.

5. Those players shouldn't be allowed to do that to people.

6. I won't vote for any content that promotes that.

 

At a glance you can kind of see where they're coming from but when you look at the other side of the argument you can see they're completely missing the point. In their eyes any content that lives in the wilderness is there to create "loot piñatas" for pkers to make money off of and while that's true for some, it's not true for every person in the wilderness. In my mind this is how it should work:

 

1. Risk and reward balanced content in the wilderness exists. (a fantasy at this point I know)

2. All kinds of players use this content for the generous rewards.

3. Individuals/small groups of Pkers come along to kill those people for their loot.

4. Larger groups come along to kill those pkers and the pvmers/skillers.

5. Even larger groups come along to kill everyone else.

6. etc etc.

 

This creates the food chain that the entire wilderness used to be based around and if you look closely, the majority of that chain aren't there to kill the pvmers or skillers, they're there just to get into some kind of fight. This is how clans used to function and this is how old school pk trips used to work. There was a time where you could go out into the wilderness in any timezone and find yourself a fight and all wilderness pkers want is to have that back. Without a bottom rung to that ladder this kind of wilderness cannot exist. Any update that doesn't help create that bottom rung will be written off as a massive disappointment which will continue to keep the player base divided. This should become the normal thought process for the majority of non-pvp players:

 

1. New rewarding wildy content is released.

2. I don't like PvP and I don't want to waste my time dying to pkers.

3. I won't go into the wildy and take part in that content.

4. I won't get the rewards that content provides and that's fine.

5. Some players will get those rewards because they took the risk and were rewarded for taking that risk and that's fine too.

 

There is nothing stopping people from deciding that a part of the game isn't for them. There's nothing forcing them take part in that content despite any kind of batshit analogies they come up with. There's nothing stopping people making their own groups of players to help them take part in that content either. The community has just become so bogged down with efficiency, account progress and solo gameplay and I think that's far more toxic and cancerous than anything that's ever come out of PvP. Just play the game and have fun in the way you want, there's no reason to be upset at dangerous/PvP content because there's no reason you have to take part in it. Don't make ridiculous, disrespectful and dangerous analogies like Mod Zuko. 

 

tl;dr locking content behind dangerous PvP doesn't mean you're forced to take part in PvP. Stop being selfish and greedy. Bring back fun to OSRS.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Wee Man

[€Sir Severed 597]

0 respect for pvmers and jmods. thanks for the spades retards

[Pietru 1,236]

Should have people with less than 50-100 player kills not be allowed to vote on PVP updates; RuneScape the #1 MSORPG

[Matt Robbin 400]

Why can't the skillers just let pkers have the 1/1000th of this game that makes it actually enjoyable?...

[Scleritis 983]

all these jmods are nerdy ass skillers, pvmers and ironman goons

 

no wildy representation at all 

[Adam_ 1,059]

From what i've been told people have said it was apparently a joke - going to wait until more is seen but having known that jmod in question since they were just a normal player I don't think they would intentionally seek to do or say anything harmful or hateful.

 

I agree for the most part what you said about efficiency and the like negatively affecting PvP because PvP is the one place where you "lose" things/progress and that isn't going to sit well with the bulk of the community having that mindset, which is quite disappointing. It's starting to notably affect other content as well it seems with them wanting to make things accessible to solo players and ironmen. A good example is the hard mode nightmare boss they recently released as solo only - myself and a few others asked Jmods why it was solo only stating we'd much prefer it to be group so it was something we could do with friends and clanmates and basically got told it was "easier for balancing" to make it solo only. Very disappointing. The Raids 3 announcement also included that they wanted to make solos possible which in my opinion is taking the it in the wrong direction. A lot of higher level pvmers have been asking for more unique content/mechanics that involve skillful group gameplay which can't be solo'd at all and instead they decided that this needs to be soloable apparently. Once again, very disappointing. A more PvP related example would obviously be the changes - some of which they did end up undoing to be fair, to DMM. I was very disappointed to see the removal of the multi stage because people cried about grinding and then getting eliminated. It's not a PvP 1v1 tournament or anything like that, there's plenty more of those occasionally hosted by Jagex and much more frequently hosted by 3rd parties. DMM doesn't need to be one too. Ayiza stated that it was just something they wanted to try which I guess fair enough, but I am concerned once people prefer this because they don't generally care for clans, this may be how it remains. I can very much appreciate the skill that goes into the 1v1 stages for some players and that some people, including those i'm friends with like it very much, but I can't think of anything more fucking boring than watching people dd under each other all of the top 2056 or however many players. 

 

The wilderness changes are another thing I don't know how I feel about. I can understand why they want to try something different, and I can understand the "if it doesn't work we can just revert it" mindset though I don't fully agree with it as sometimes the damage has been done. Not sure how things will turn out if i'm being honest as most arguments i've seen on both sides are obviously heavily biased and I don't really care enough about single pking after all these years to value the opinion of most of the people still doing it on the matter. 

 

While I more or less agree with how you feel it should be, when it comes to 'what should be peoples' thought process'  (and i'm sure you know this as well), it's probably never going to happen because it's pretty hard to change a mindset especially one like that. 

 

I may have missed it but I think it's pretty important to acknowledge how fractured the PvP community is when you have multi clans, single teams, solo pkers/content creators, and well not as much with BH gone but edge style pkers who are mostly in PvP worlds now. I believe we've had previous discussions about some of this, but I also think it does a fair amount of damage to everything when you have an already quite small community fighting within itself because something may not be good for another group, or even trying to get content effectively changed as a result of this. 

 

Lastly I don't think it's fair to say that even though I don't entirely care for the game being more geared towards solo gameplay and the like, despite being more of a PvMer than anything else I guess, that it's "more toxic than anything out of PvP". You do know there's people who harass each others' families, try to ruin their lives, swat each other and do all sorts of other sick twisted shit all over clanning right? Pretty sure that despite how toxic some other elements of the game can be, the PvP community will always hold the top spot when it comes to that. 

[Wee Man 1,349]

48 minutes ago, Adam_ said:

Lastly I don't think it's fair to say that even though I don't entirely care for the game being more geared towards solo gameplay and the like, despite being more of a PvMer than anything else I guess, that it's "more toxic than anything out of PvP". You do know there's people who harass each others' families, try to ruin their lives, swat each other and do all sorts of other sick twisted shit all over clanning right? Pretty sure that despite how toxic some other elements of the game can be, the PvP community will always hold the top spot when it comes to that. 

You do know that this isn't relegated to just the PvP community? Doxing, Swatting, DDoSing, hacking etc etc happens across the game from all kinds of retards not just clan folk or PvPers, I would even argue it's much more common in other areas of the game than PvP. I suppose toxic was the wrong word however, I was thinking more along the lines of detrimental to the game.

 

Quote

I may have missed it but I think it's pretty important to acknowledge how fractured the PvP community is when you have multi clans, single teams, solo pkers/content creators, and well not as much with BH gone but edge style pkers who are mostly in PvP worlds now. I believe we've had previous discussions about some of this, but I also think it does a fair amount of damage to everything when you have an already quite small community fighting within itself because something may not be good for another group, or even trying to get content effectively changed as a result of this. 

I'm mostly referring to the wilderness as an area and the mindset of the majority of non pvp players as opposed to say specific PvP players. The area itself is for one thing only and that's danger. It's supposed to be thrilling, rewarding and active. and right now it just isn't, at least not how it was. That is what every pvp orientated player wants. They want the action and that's it.

 

Quote

While I more or less agree with how you feel it should be, when it comes to 'what should be peoples' thought process'  (and i'm sure you know this as well), it's probably never going to happen because it's pretty hard to change a mindset especially one like that. 

It never going to happen is down to the Jmods which sadly seem to be made up mostly of ex ironmen, pvmers, skillers with very little influence from the PvP side of things. However unlikely it maybe I still think it's worth pointing out what should change for the health of the PvP community.

Edited August 16, 2021 by Wee Man

[Adam_ 1,059]

1 minute ago, Wee Man said:

You do know that this isn't relegated to just the PvP community? Doxing, Swatting, DDoSing, hacking etc etc happens across the game from all kinds of retards not just clan folk or PvPers, I would even argue it's much more common in other areas of the game than PvP. I suppose toxic was the wrong word however, I was thinking more along the lines of detrimental to the game.

 

I'm mostly referring to the wilderness as an area and the mindset of the majority of non pvp players as opposed to say specific PvP players. The area itself is for one thing only and that's danger. It's supposed to be thrilling, rewarding and active. and right now it just isn't, at least not how it was. and that is what every pvp orientated player wants. They want action and that's it.

 

It never going to happen is down to the Jmods which sadly seem to be made up mostly of ex ironmen, pvmers, skillers with very little influence from the PvP side of things. However unlikely it maybe I still think it's worth pointing out what should change for the health of the PvP community.

Detrimental to the game sure. I don't think doxing or any of that is anywhere near as common as it is in PvP on OSRS though and I assumed we were just talking about OSRS - not other games.

 

As for the rest fair enough though I do think even if there were Jmods who were more experienced with PvP/clanning, it probably wouldn't be very different. They can't just add things into the game without approval and i'm pretty sure a lot they'd come up with would ultimately be shot down when feedback revealed a large portion of the playerbase wasn't a fan and higher ups didn't give the green light for it - they are a business after all. Not saying it's right or even good, but pretty sure even though jmods largely not coming from PvP backgrounds probably does have an effect on things, it's not what's keeping things from changing. 

 

I know Abyss had released his Wilderness 2 video he worked on with other pkers and some Jmods who are no longer at Jagex and Ayiza had said he hopes they can do something like that, iirc it was high risk high reward in an addition to the wilderness containing both single and multi areas and unique content. Ultimately, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up getting shot down for some of the aforementioned reasons if it ever even got to that stage.  

[dnd5 1,017]

Rev caves was the one place this really existed and they completely ruined them. They didn’t need to change to singles plus to prevent the locking down of worlds imo. 
 

Now the closest thing we have is wildy altar which really isn’t a good place to pk 

[Wee Man 1,349]

Just now, Adam_ said:

I know Abyss had released his Wilderness 2 video he worked on with other pkers and some Jmods who are no longer at Jagex and Ayiza had said he hopes they can do something like that, iirc it was high risk high reward in an addition to the wilderness containing both single and multi areas and unique content. Ultimately, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up getting shot down for some of the aforementioned reasons if it ever even got to that stage.  

I didn't like his suggestion now that you mention it. Making an already dead area of the game larger isn't the move. You need to fill the area with better content rather than just adding a new section onto it. If the area came with that content then sure but its not necessary.

 

Quote

Detrimental to the game sure. I don't think doxing or any of that is anywhere near as common as it is in PvP on OSRS though and I assumed we were just talking about OSRS - not other games.

It's not common in PvP. It's common to one specific group of players in PvP but it's not rampant like people make out. 10 years ago you'd have been corect but now? nah.

[Wee Man 1,349]

2 minutes ago, dnd5 said:

Rev caves was the one place this really existed and they completely ruined them. They didn’t need to change to singles plus to prevent the locking down of worlds imo. 
 

Now the closest thing we have is wildy altar which really isn’t a good place to pk 

My only complaint about the caves prior to them being ruined is that they shoved them in a cave. At that point it's not the wilderness anymore imo, it's just a PvP cave, might as well be in Lumbridge. You're right though, Rev caves were an excellent example of what the wilderness needs. The gold farming from vennies are what ruined it, not the clans holding the area hostage, that kind of gameplay is excellent. Instead of addressing the gold farming they just washed their hands of the whole thing and killed it. 

[dnd5 1,017]

2 minutes ago, Wee Man said:

My only complaint about the caves prior to them being ruined is that they shoved them in a cave. At that point it's not the wilderness anymore imo, it's just a PvP cave, might as well be in Lumbridge. You're right though, Rev caves were an excellent example of what the wilderness needs. The gold farming from vennies are what ruined it, not the clans holding the area hostage, that kind of gameplay is excellent. Instead of addressing the gold farming they just washed their hands of the whole thing and killed it. 

Agreed, but some layout changes would have largely made many of the complaints about the cave irrelevant. But yes they won’t tackle the root of the problem which is large scale gold farming 

Edited August 16, 2021 by dnd5

[Adam_ 1,059]

2 minutes ago, Wee Man said:

I didn't like his suggestion now that you mention it. Making an already dead area of the game larger isn't the move. You need to fill the area with better content rather than just adding a new section onto it. If the area came with that content then sure but its not necessary.

 

It's not common in PvP. It's common to one specific group of players in PvP but it's not rampant like people make out. 10 years ago you'd have been corect but now? nah.

My point was that even when unique suggestions that have a good balance of high risk/high reward are suggested or theorized they will probably fail due to the aforementioned, whether it's something that one may consider a good or bad idea, in existing parts of the wilderness or otherwise. Additionally I doubt you're the only one who feels this way meanwhile i'm sure plenty of people like the suggestion and would want it which is part of the problem - there will likely never be an update that the already very small PvP community will fully agree upon.

 

Excluding the group you're speaking about there are definitely at least 2 other large clans that regularly participate in it and another "clan" that are doing it to DF. Even if we were to just take into account the group you mentioned i'd what goes on there is far more common than i've ever seen among skillers/PvMers. I would say 3 major clans and some others participating in it when there's so few clans existing at this point makes it pretty common. That's not even getting into like pure clans, pvp world raggers and shit that nobody really cares about but are technically a part of the PvP community nonetheless.

[Wee Man 1,349]

3 minutes ago, Adam_ said:

Excluding the group you're speaking about there are definitely at least 2 other large clans that regularly participate in it and another "clan" that are doing it to DF. Even if we were to just take into account the group you mentioned i'd what goes on there is far more common than i've ever seen among skillers/PvMers. I would say 3 major clans and some others participating in it when there's so few clans existing at this point makes it pretty common. That's not even getting into like pure clans, pvp world raggers and shit that nobody really cares about but are technically a part of the PvP community nonetheless.

I've seen it in all parts of the game. Painting it as a PvP scene problem isn't fair.

[Adam_ 1,059]

2 minutes ago, Wee Man said:

I've seen it in all parts of the game. Painting it as a PvP scene problem isn't fair.

I didn't say it wasn't present in all areas of the game it's just considerably less common outside of the PvP community than it is within. On pretty much any given twitter thread from any of a certain 3 major clans you can find people from another posting on fake twitters representing peoples' irls and family members and that's not even the worst thing. Don't quite see stuff like that with any similar frequency in other areas of OSRS though there are definitely select incidents. I'm not by any means trying to say other parts of the community don't have scummy individuals - they certainly do, but to say it's not substantially more common among people in PvP? Idk