The Wilderness, PvP, & Risk vs Reward

[Vanzant 1,390]

Seeing as I don't really read the topics, no they arent boring! =D

[Wee Man 1,349]

1 minute ago, Vanzant said:

Seeing as I don't really read the topics, no they arent boring! =D

You should. I create great discussions.

[Josh 137]

There isn't really an ideal way, I remember these things popped up often over the years.

 

Skilling just has people in such basic gear it's not worth pking them. When hunter came out you could go kill someone hunting lizards and you'd get  a net and a rope as a drop. They would need a system like BH where you can only access the best skill areas if you are risking X amount of value and have a red skull over your head (e.g 75k or 100k).  Even then xp rates would need to be so substantially higher to incentivise people, Jagex probably wouldn't add them (e.g if the fastest WC xp in the game is 100k per hour, you'd need to have 150k or 200k per hour).

 

As for bosses, people would probably find a way to rag them, otherwise they'd just not bother and it'd be dead content. 

 

Skilling is probably the best chance... It's too hard to change the mentality which used to be so xp/hour focused (at least in 2012)

[Req 231]

The best was killing people doing clue scrolls.  Jagex then went on to add clue boxes...smh

[Vanzant 1,390]

46 minutes ago, Wee Man said:

You should. I create great discussions.

Na I do read it, I was kidding lol

[Buzz 99]

I'm just glad you did a tl;dr 

[Wee Man 1,349]

7 minutes ago, Buzz said:

I'm just glad you did a tl;dr 

Doesn't matter either way for you since you can't read.

[Justyn 445]

Agree the wild should have more rewards to have the willingness for these pvmers to even enter the wildy.

[Melo C 237]

@Howl that hub discord is absolutely retarded. Was there when it was a discord originally created for shit rune rock teams. It’s basically there so people can flame tf out each other while head ranks get a laugh out of it lmaoaooo. Absolutely love it

[≈david 808]

The game revolves around what ironman and pvm nerds say, they'll never have a good wilderness update.

[I Kill Batty 283]

Thank you his lordship

[Wee Man 1,349]

14 minutes ago, I Kill Batty said:

Thank you his lordship

I'm a superior baker to him and I guarantee I eat out mangos better than he does.

[Adam_ 1,059]

9 hours ago, Wee Man said:

This is a long one so a quick tl;dr: Wildy risk vs reward is scuffed. People misunderstand the role of the wild. It should have the best xp/gp rates in the game. PvMers/Skillers need to get over themselves.

 

It's been no secret that the wildy hasn't been as active as it was in previous years and that trend doesn't look to be changing any time soon. 10-12 years ago you could easily run PK trips 24/7, if you really wanted, and find a lot of people to kill for loot or genuinely scrap with in both F2P and P2P. Nowadays you'd be lucky to find someone killing one of the bosses (which suck btw). The game itself isn't dying, player growth is trending upwards and that looks to be getting another sharp increase from the release on Steam. So why is this the case?

 

The sad fact is that the risk vs reward balance is just so fucking bad in that area of the game that nobody really wants to step foot in there unless they're already established pkers. F2P is especially bad because people really don't get exposed to that side of the game much anymore due in part to the release of bonds and  obviously that there's really nothing to do there. I believe the wild should offer some of the best profit and XP rates in the entire game but opponents of that idea think that the pkers should fight other pkers and stop trying to "lure" PvM/Skillers into the wild to feast on. This is a misunderstanding of what the wilderness is supposed to be. The wild isn't supposed to be there just for PKers to 1v1 in fair matchups showcasing their skill like it's the Deadman mode finals. It's there to be an incredibly dangerous area of the game, balanced around the fact that someone might come along and kill you for your stuff and the competitive PvP aspect is a by-product of that.

 

For our scene to grow the wild needs to be active, there needs to be rewarding content to take part in for all kinds of players to build that initial activity for wildy PvP to thrive on. Some examples of when that has been the case from when I played would be back when EP was introduced or when the Rev caves came out in OSRS. Those 2 updates were extremely profitable for players and we saw a huge increase in activity in the wild (although rev caves was concentrated on a cave rather than the actual wild), granted they were abused to fuck due to their shoddy implementation but the fact that the activity shot up because they were extremely profitable is the key idea I'm taking away from that.

 

PvMers/Skillers need to get over the idea of pigeonholing themselves into one part of the game and writing off everything else. If they'd take the time to think they'd realise that most PvP players actually take part in almost every part of the game and have decent accounts. If they don't want to PvP that's fine, they can stay away from it but don't then turn around and say that because you don't want to take part in it that any update promoting that should be voted against. Jagex need to realise that listening to the majority of these players from social media is blinding them from the obvious solutions. Make the wilderness great again by adding content that people actually want to do. Nobody wants to go kill Callisto for 1m an hour when Zulrah and Vorkath exist in private little safe areas for much more money.

 

What do you guys think? Should the risk vs reward balanced be overhauled in the wild or do you think the PvMers and Skillers have a point? Are my topics boring and too long? Will I ever join the hub discord?

 

IMAGINE WRITING PARAGRAPHS ABOUT OSRS IN 2021 LMFAO

First off i'm genuinely concerned about the steam release being this coming week due to the poor state of the steam client and the fact that they said they wanted to work on customer support a lot this year, and taking their word for it actually coming, it clearly hasn't happened yet. I was sure the client would be in a better state and they'd have some sort of better customer support system in place before the steam release. Due to this, I have a feeling the steam release could actually be worse for the game/the game's growth if it goes poorly enough, which would certainly be less than preferable. But obviously that's not the point of this topic so... anyways

 

You have some good points about some things. F2p is pretty bad, but I don't think that's entirely due to bonds. The game is a lot different than it was back in the day and so are we. We're all grown up now, so nobody is really getting stuck in f2p. Even younger players it's pretty obvious their parents are much more willing to let them spend money on membership and even bonds for gp ingame. Additionally, I recall Mod Mat K doing an interview with Shauny sometime after leaving OSRS where he said the game wouldn't still be around without bonds, and I fully agree. That may have actually been on his Q&A here as opposed to the interview, don't remember, but point still stands. F2p is also a lot worse off due to all the bots since gp is valuable, and even though f2p botting doesn't make much, it also costs very little to nothing so it's almost guaranteed profit and of course people are going to do it, no matter how many of their bots get banned. This in turn makes it very hard to add any profitable content to f2p at all because it will be abused, to be totally honest with you i'm not sure what can be done to address this issue. Even assuming they hire more people in the anti cheating department and upgrade their (VERY old and not great) technology in that department, it's still pretty much a never ending battle that would require a lot of resources to moderate for a part of the game that essentially generates them zero revenue. Because of this, I don't think there's much that can realistically be added into f2p to make it more appealing, which will in turn make people even more likely to jump to p2p especially with the wide availability of membership now. 

 

The "luring" skillers/pvmers into the wilderness thing is always a pretty interesting topic. I agree with you to some extent, but I also see the other side of the argument. The fact is the wilderness is the onyl real place you can actually lose progress now unless you die somewhere with a death storage then die again, which isn't insanely common (excluding hacks/scams/etc which aren't really "gameplay"). I think it's also important to note a lot of the reason its in this state is because of changes they made due to disconnects/world DDoSing which was largely if not near entirely clans and pkers doing it to each other for profit, which clearly ended up shooting that community in the foot. The community is very different from how it once was, some of this is for the better, some of it isn't. A lot of players are very entitled due to the existence of the polling system and being able to interact with devs and it shows. This effects a lot of other things outside PvP and I don't care for it but since this is on the subject of the PvP and the wilderness i'll save the full discussion for perhaps another time. Anyways the community has essentially been built up to be this way over the past few years and it's very unlikely to change. Jagex is a business and oldschool is a major product so they can't really afford to go pissing off a significant portion of their player base, which, unfortunately, do not care for the wilderness. This essentially puts them in a position where they want to give updates to the portion of the community that enjoys pvp and more specifically the wilderness, but they have to take into serious consideration the considerably larger portion of the community that doesn't. I'm sure it's far from an easy task to come up with something that creates wilderness activity but won't be "luring pvmers/skillers/ironmen" to the wild, which a majority of them do NOT like. I do feel that when going to the wilderness people should likely be looking for someone whose going to fight back and give them an actual fight, but there's also nothing wrong with killing people hunting chins or doing bones for extra prayer exp/hr, that's why those things are there - to give people a bit of a boost over other activities in exchange for some risk. There's also pretty easy methods to minimize risk doing these, but of course a lot of the people doing them and dying then complaining don't know this. 

 

I often see people say that PvP should be essentially zero profit apart from whatever your opponent has on you (no bh/etc) which I think is really dumb because you could apply the same argument to most pvm activities. Are some fun? Sure. Do you think people would still be doing chambers if it didn't have any uniques? Doubt it, at least most people. However, the issue with PvP and additional profit is that it will almost certainly be abused. BH was a nightmare to the point where they couldn't even realistically police it. Revs was a shitshow by the end and needed to go. BH didn't really create much wilderness activity because it was one world and almost entirely boosters risking very little, but revs did. It was probably the most "successful" PvP update in OSRS history. However in PvP players have a lot more control over things than in pvm or skilling, showcased very obviously by the fact that almost all worlds eventually ended up being locked down and used for goldfarming/rwt on a scale that couldn't be policed either. The community has shown time and time again that if there's an avenue for abuse they'll take it, and while it affects many aspects of the game, it's far worse in PvP where players have much more control due to the fact that they can work together. So how can Jagex realistically add updates for the wilderness, even if they were to fully ignore the people who feel they're being "lured' into the wilderness, that would genuinely create activity, but wouldn't result in the same issues that plagued rev caves? You could make it so the incentive isn't gp based, which would deter goldfarmers, rwters, and likely most bots, but then it's a question of how many people it'd actually be bringing to the wilderness, and what activity if any it would be creating. A lot of skills already have high exp methods outside of the wilderness, and the community is generally very against flat out buffs that replace existing metas - this isn't even specific to whether or not they're in the wilderness, though obviously many would dislike it being there even more. So do they nerf existing methods? Just put better methods in the wilderness? How much better do they have to be to actually entice people to go there, and will it even require them to risk anything? A lot of people already opt out of existing wilderness methods even if they're better because they cba. The only people I see at black chins now are pet hunters who are unlikely to die, and venes or bots. Altar has some more activity but it's much easier to not risk there, and even then we have idiots trying to hold that down like revs and charge people to use the altar, not to mention the fact that the altar isn't really going to generate much activity apart from very small/short multi fights due to the size/location, or maybe some people fighting a bit in single. 

 

I fully agree with you that pvmers/skillers shouldn't be writing off other people, but that comes back to what I previously said about players being entitled, and that is unfortunately very unlikely to change. While it's true a lot of PvPers do partake in other aspects of the game and are decent at it, or even on occasion quite exceptional (Metalic M4g3 being first to 0 set zuk and one of the first people to do inferno on 45 def pretty sure being a good example), I don't think many people "care" for lack of a better term, regardless. People are selfish and don't care if you're just another player with as much right to enjoy the game as they are, because if they don't like something you do that's really all there is to it. This isn't unique to how many people feel about PvPers either, I promise you. It's a very annoying way people tend to be in the RS community. It's very dumb that people vote and act selfishly and if something is proposed that could be good for players who enjoy the game differently to how they do, they'll be against it if it's the slightest bit of inconvenience to them - which is what it turns out to be if there's better things in the wilderness than elsewhere and it requires them to go there in order to get those things. I do agree that shouldn't be a deciding factor in whether or not the wilderness gets nice things, but obviously as previously mentioned Jagex is a business with OSRS being their product and they have to tread carefully if it could seriously alienate a significant portion of their player base. 

 

I do hope that the wilderness gets something to generate some activity, but some of the things I mentioned I think will make that very challenging, otherwise it will end up getting nerfed into the floor like revs or near fully scrapped like BH. I think Ayiza who returned some months ago is very aware of these issues and all of the considerations to make and still wants to deliver something good for PvPers and the wilderness, which makes me hopeful, but at the end of the day he doesn't get final say on what does/doesn't happen and he could spend months trying to come up with solutions only for them to get scrapped if they aren't popular enough or if people are seriously against them. I certainly don't envy his position - having to deal with, on one hand, angry pvpers who want updates, and on the other hand, other angry individuals in the community who don't want to feel forced to participate in such updates. 

 

I think a very important thing that I didn't see you touch on (though perhaps you did and I just missed it) is that PvP is something that is most enjoyable when done with other people. Sure it can be fun sometimes (perhaps not to everyone) to go solo pking for loot, but it really doesn't hold a candle to pking with people you enjoy playing the game with whether it's single pking or multi pking. This is good because people should be encouraged to make friends and join clans and stuff, but also very problematic because it essentially requires people to do so in able to participate. Nobody is going to continually solo pk if they just get rinsed by clans let alone the other issues (pretty hard to kill people solo pking with all the npcs/escape routes/etc), at least, very few will. But does anyone really want to join a clan in 2021? Look at what the clanning community has become, there's so little new blood. Is part of it due to lack of updates and lack of support for that portion of the community? Sure. But is all of it? You'd have to be dense to feel that way, this portion of the community has done more damage to itself than anyone else time and time again. Nobody wants to join any of the major clans or teams be it single pking or multi clanning in 2021, with some very rare exceptions, unless they have some PvP background. Why? Look at (most) of the clans and the way they behave, and the things they do. I'm not even talking specifically about RoT. They've been the bad guys for ages and everyone knows this, they live up to it and thrive off of it. If anyone wants to get into PvP and wants to go that route, they likely know what they're getting, even if they're naive, because the reputation proceeds them. Other clans (not talking about Tempest nor really DF btw, if I felt Tempest was part of the problem i'd never bother being here) don't really give off the same vibe as RoT do in being the long time villain of the PvP scene, but in reality a lot of them are just as bad. Full of people who don't know how to behave and who do scummy shit which ultimately kills the scene even further, anyone new trying to get involved either gets turned off trying to join another clan because they think they're getting some wholesome or good experience "fighting against" RoT only to find out there's a fair chance whatever community they joined is equally shit, or they end up adapting and becoming part of the same problem because they behave the same way. Even if a clan doesn't participate in that bullshit and is generally welcoming to new individuals in their community, you pretty much have to pick a side these days and if you do, a lot of people on the other side are going to hate you for it and likely harass you just due to whatever clan you decide to be in because they want to discourage people joining and building up numbers for their enemy as much as possible, as well as obvious other reasons like long term rivalries and hate. This isn't an issue on Jagex nor is it something they can fix, but it'll probably contribute significantly to the end of the clanning community if certain clans don't learn to shape up. If RoT closed today do you think this would actually be over? I'd give it a month until there was some new dumb ass crash war over something stupid combined with lack of a common enemy in order to give people something to get invested in, and I think we've seen stuff like this can't happen without the community killing itself off, though feel free to disagree with me. 

 

Tl;dr Yes I think there should be risk vs. reward in the wilderness, but it's MUCH easier said than done, there's a lot of things to tackle there and a lot of issues. I'm not even fully sure if it's possible anymore with the state of the game and the community, obviously i'd like to see things return to a place where most/everyone is happy but that's not entirely on Jagex and in fact a lot of the issue isn't their fault. They certainly need to invest time into putting in updates, and I mean quality updates that aren't just dead content or going to end up nerfed/removed due to abuse, among other things. But if the community decides to continue being as terrible as possible and kill itself off, what's the point? 

 

Also  I agree that people aren't going to really want to kill wilderness bosses for lower gp/hr than some of the safer alternatives even if they have lower requirements, apart from pet hunters/collectionists or ironmen who need uniques, and a lot of ironmen do NOT want to go there/be there obviously. I'd certainly like to see them buffed but then i'd be worried they'd run into the revs issue, even if they're harder to lock down, though previous proposals i've heard have included giving them actual mechanics and not being able to be safespotted, meaning they'd likely be placed in some sort of cave or enclosure, which could actually make them easier to lock down. I'm pretty sure these and other wilderness related content/issues are planned to be discussed/addressed in April, so guess we'll see how that goes. 

[Kav 134]

Buh muh money printers vorkie & the more click intensive zulrah would need to get balanced around this
 

[Secret Agent 15]

are u any good at aoe2 yet ?