Clients

[Adam_ 1,034]

3 hours ago, Howl said:

 

 

What do you think needs to be done to the base client before they ban 3rd party clients? Is it fine now? What features (from runelite or otherwise) do you think would be necessary or close to it if no?

Good XP trackers, tile markers, a better GE, the list goes on. The "problem" of 3rd party clients has gone on for so long now, that client features have expanded far past the base-QoL features that they once provided. I think banning 3rd party clients would feel similar to when they removed free trade/the wilderness as far as player outrage goes.

 

What do you mean by 'a better GE' out of curiosity? I also think you are likely not wrong with that last bit, they would need to really step their own game up on the vanilla client to have something decent to offer players if they wanted to mitigate the amount of hate they'd get in any way. 

6 hours ago, Brian said:

 

 

Do you think Jagex should ban 3rd party clients?

Not until they're willing to take some sort of WoW style approach where they let people develop and add plugins. I guess they could make it so these plugins have to be approved. Inconvenient truth is they'd lose at least half their OSRS player base if they banned clients though.

 

What do you think needs to be done to the base client before they ban 3rd party clients? Is it fine now? What features (from runelite or otherwise) do you think would be necessary or close to it if no?

As I said previously they need to take the WoW approach. Provide the client and APIs. Let people develop plugins for it.

 

 

This is an interesting thought, not sure how I feel about this mainly because i'm unsure if the approval process would be great let alone if they would actually be able to stop people just adding their own shit anyways without approval (there's at least one runelite plugin i've spoken to Adam about that he said they can't do anything about, and they have a good relationship with Jagex so I doubt they can do anything either.) I don't know if this would actually prevent a lot of the shit that already happens with clients either, but I guess it at least means 3rd party clients would be bannable (presumably). 

 

How would you feel about them essentially absorbing runelite and making that the official client, perhaps doing a second and more official look through at available plugins and clearing out some that may not be as welcome, then tightening up the plugin hub or whatever so that perhaps a bit less gets through into it and becomes available? I guess it's somewhat similar to what you've already stated, but it's the only real way I see that happening as opposed to Jagex themselves doing it. 

9 hours ago, stone said:

All of the clients including runelite make the game much easier, if they gonna take out 3 party clients they gotta take out runelite too imo

Can't really disagree with a single word of this, though I would hope they'd also add some features to their existing client before doing so to make the transition a bit more smooth and perhaps make people a bit less upset. 

[Adam_ 1,034]

1 hour ago, Lavigne said:

Do you blame people for using these clients?

No, because it's understandable people would want to be equal with anyone else. But if you're using them as a crutch then you fucking suck because you can war fine on the default OSRS client and I've been doing so for years lol, somehow even OSRS players aren't immune to forgetting how to open their eyes. Unless you're Brian and you're like 50 or pt37 and you're like 70, in which case ye, when kids start calling me grandad I'd probably need a client to counter my reactions by then too lol.

 

Do you think Jagex should ban 3rd party clients?

Their own client should take more notes from what the other clients have to offer and develop based on it. It's pretty clear they felt a lot of runelite stuff was legal, so why not just steal their ideas and make it increasingly more attractive to play vanilla. This way they can ban all the other clients and people still won't lose much. Imagine having to actually play the game. 

 

How do you find these clients effect your game play?

Do you find yourself using or even depending on them? Or are you someone who perhaps finds themselves getting piled or sniped a bit more often than preferable because the opposing clan can highlight you or use friend finder to find where you are, even in a mess of 100+ people, with very little effort? 

The last one I used were Konduit/early Runelite and a modified Exilent (SV client). Back when it was just a couple of really nice overlays but you still had to open your eyes (then again I also disabled a lot of overlays that I felt were just outright cheating). And yeah I can tell pretty obviously when I'm being client piled or sniped over and over, makes the game really unenjoyable to play ngl because before half the skill was in hiding yourself and your robes but this is now irrelevant.

 

What do you think needs to be done to the base client before they ban 3rd party clients? Is it fine now? What features (from runelite or otherwise) do you think would be necessary or close to it if no?

Covered already.

 

What do you think are the worst features of 3rd party clients that need to go? What is the most damaging?

Overlays and automation that literally tell you what to do or play the game for you. The style detect thing in PVP is also fucking cancerous.

 

Are you concerned with the J cup coming that clients will have a significant effect on the outcome of certain fights?

Yep. Especially since I will likely be back in Korea by then so even if I lay down my prejudice for one fight, I can't use those clients in Korea because well, it's illegal lol and getting the standard OSRS client to cache is hard enough. 

Not sure I was actually aware there was a style detect thing for pvp lmao, though I guess it makes sense since obviously other worse plugins detect it like those that switch pray based on what weapon your opponent has. I knew things were pretty bad with pvp and clients, but it sounds like it may even be worse than some of the shit people use for PvM which i've not really cared for (though one could argue that since this is in direct competition with other players it would be worse regardless) especially since I would imagine the style detect thing isn't bannable either whereas some of the more flamboyant shit people use to basically bot pking for them is. I think perhaps the worst thing is that I imagine it will only get worse until something's done.

[Howl 946]

4 minutes ago, Adam_ said:

What do you mean by 'a better GE' out of curiosity? I also think you are likely not wrong with that last bit, they would need to really step their own game up on the vanilla client to have something decent to offer players if they wanted to mitigate the amount of hate they'd get in any way.

The prices in the actual GE are often off and update once every four hours with certain limitations. Runelite has been using the OSBuddy GE tracker that was so popular at one point and now will be shifting over to an agreement with the OSRS Wiki to provide more up-to-date pricing.

 

6 minutes ago, Adam_ said:

How would you feel about them essentially absorbing runelite and making that the official client, perhaps doing a second and more official look through at available plugins and clearing out some that may not be as welcome, then tightening up the plugin hub or whatever so that perhaps a bit less gets through into it and becomes available? I guess it's somewhat similar to what you've already stated, but it's the only real way I see that happening as opposed to Jagex themselves doing it.

In my opinion, it makes no sense for Jagex to absorb Runelite. They would either have to take over the Github project (a significant undertaking) or make the project closed source (even more work, more likely to be broken, have problems, less updates, etc). The Runelite project has its issues (and the devs are certainly not pros), but the benefits of open source are clear and the work is free. No way Jagex gives up free work at this point.

[Adam_ 1,034]

1 minute ago, Howl said:

The prices in the actual GE are often off and update once every four hours with certain limitations. Runelite has been using the OSBuddy GE tracker that was so popular at one point and now will be shifting over to an agreement with the OSRS Wiki to provide more up-to-date pricing.

 

In my opinion, it makes no sense for Jagex to absorb Runelite. They would either have to take over the Github project (a significant undertaking) or make the project closed source (even more work, more likely to be broken, have problems, less updates, etc). The Runelite project has its issues (and the devs are certainly not pros), but the benefits of open source are clear and the work is free. No way Jagex gives up free work at this point.

This makes sense. I'd wonder if perhaps the Runelite guys, especially considering they already have a good relationship with Jagex, would be able to develop features more reasonably for the vanilla client in order for it to be revamped and 3pc to be banned. I guess there'd likely be some red tape unless there were some sort of contract, but I also don't know if the runelite guys have any desire to do so. Hopefully Jagex are willing to put down a bit more money to improve their own client but like you said, not sure the people at the top only concerned about profit will really have an interest in doing so when someone else does it for free.

[Howl 946]

3 minutes ago, Adam_ said:

This makes sense. I'd wonder if perhaps the Runelite guys, especially considering they already have a good relationship with Jagex, would be able to develop features more reasonably for the vanilla client in order for it to be revamped and 3pc to be banned. I guess there'd likely be some red tape unless there were some sort of contract, but I also don't know if the runelite guys have any desire to do so. Hopefully Jagex are willing to put down a bit more money to improve their own client but like you said, not sure the people at the top only concerned about profit will really have an interest in doing so when someone else does it for free.

I would guess that Runelite developers have no interest in developing features for the vanilla client. Open source projects like Runelite are generally hobby/passion projects and open source such that you can share them. Not only would they need to be paid, but developing directly for Jagex could potentially ruin the experience.

[Vanzant 1,380]

This isn't so much about clients but botting is insane now too

 

 

[Adam_ 1,034]

40 minutes ago, Vanzant said:

This isn't so much about clients but botting is insane now too

 

 

Just gave it a watch. I guess it's to be expected with advancements in technology, but as he says in the video they also do things to intentionally throw people off or run from people when they see them, which clearly means even though Jagex don't exactly have cutting edge detection, they're clearly still getting banned and afraid of getting reported/investigated. It's still obviously quite interesting to see some of them in action, having first hand seen the lms bots and a lot of other similar stuff myself. I've also seen fully automated inferno to where it's an actual bot and not just some nerd on a client but I don't know what the success rate/ban rate is like on that and I can't imagine it's the best idea to use it, as well as it being quite private i'm pretty sure. Both clients and bots i'm sure will continue to evolve, but so will the technology to detect and deal with them. I guess as players, we just kind of have to hope there doesn''t become too much of a gap favoring the bots/clients to where it negatively affects our gameplay more than it already does. 

[Vanzant 1,380]

6 minutes ago, Adam_ said:

Just gave it a watch. I guess it's to be expected with advancements in technology, but as he says in the video they also do things to intentionally throw people off or run from people when they see them, which clearly means even though Jagex don't exactly have cutting edge detection, they're clearly still getting banned and afraid of getting reported/investigated. It's still obviously quite interesting to see some of them in action, having first hand seen the lms bots and a lot of other similar stuff myself. I've also seen fully automated inferno to where it's an actual bot and not just some nerd on a client but I don't know what the success rate/ban rate is like on that and I can't imagine it's the best idea to use it, as well as it being quite private i'm pretty sure. Both clients and bots i'm sure will continue to evolve, but so will the technology to detect and deal with them. I guess as players, we just kind of have to hope there doesn''t become too much of a gap favoring the bots/clients to where it negatively affects our gameplay more than it already does. 

The amount of gp though is insane lol. At my biggest staking days I was able to do 50 to 60k a year but way more risk lol

[Adam_ 1,034]

Just now, Vanzant said:

The amount of gp though is insane lol. At my biggest staking days I was able to do 50 to 60k a year but way more risk lol

Yeah although there's definitely a strong possibility to lose money. Using the video for example they said none of the ent bots had been able to mule anything, so whoever owned those basically lost the cost of the accounts/training, gear, bonds, servers he was running them on and the time invested and came up with nothing. The guy who was training accounts to be sold also obviously didn't get to sell any so that's all that gone as well as all the other investments. A lot of people i've seen mostly opt to buy hacked accounts to bot nowadays because they're somehow cheaper and already likely have stats you can bot something with, but it seems Jagex ban those quite a lot too as i've seen reporting them myself. It sounds a lot like risk is increasing for most of the people doing stuff like this, as well as stakers since i've heard of pretty consistent ban waves in the arena. As someone who doesn't partake in any of it and would rather see the game continue to be around, I think that's a good thing, but by no means is botting or any of that stuff going anywhere ofc

[Da Bazz 715]

Do you blame people for using these clients?

No, there's just to much QoL in interfaces not to mention that the Vanilla client performs very poorly.

 

However I do blame people for using any plugins that tells them what prayer to use and where to move. At that point you are just clicking without thinking. I can't understand how people can enjoy the game if they are just clicking where the plugin tells them to. Even if this is just so they can join their friends who put in the time to learn something. Obviously the botting plugins are beyond retarded (like the ones in the videos).

 

I don't agree with using plugins in clans / PvP / speed running etc so you can remain competitive because everyone else uses them. In my opinion this is an indication of shit values and it's sad that players drop their values just to stay competitive. Example Aatykon the speedrunner for ToB / CoX / Inferno was VERY against plugins to boost performance but then started using them as well because he couldn't bare to stay 'left behind'. This behavior to 'be the best at all costs' even at the cost of your own values is very prevalent in the world today especially in the USA.

 

Do you think Jagex should ban 3rd party clients?

Yes and actually invest into their own client. I think / hope they might do that with the Steam client and push that one as the official client. They rewrote it from scratch in a different code base so hopefully it's less fucked and less spaghetti then the Vanilla one. If it is better manageable then I could imagine that the devs may want to work on the client since it's easier to add things. Banning 3rd party plugins will most likely kill their game but this decision not being made is another example of having shit values where the dollar triumphs over anything else that's actually meaningful.

 

How do you find these clients effect your game play?

Do you find yourself using or even depending on them? Or are you someone who perhaps finds themselves getting piled or sniped a bit more often than preferable because the opposing clan can highlight you or use friend finder to find where you are, even in a mess of 100+ people, with very little effort? 

I don't really depend on them since I have been doing fine with Steam for a few months now. However learning new content where positioning is key (ToB, Cox to some degree, Inferno,..) is significantly harder without Tile Markers. I bring this up because I was struggling with ToB and even CoX to some degree when I started using Steam more. I was reluctant at first to use Steam (also because it was super buggy) and used my friends account when doing ToB / CoX. Even now my friends tell me to NOT use Steam because my movement etc is just way less accurate.

 

I think I get piled more or at least die instantly more often then in the past which I blame on clients. But I'm also very bad now and my focus isn't the same as it was as a kid / student (more tired cause work drains my brain also reaction speed may have dropped).

 

What do you think needs to be done to the base client before they ban 3rd party clients? Is it fine now? What features (from runelite or otherwise) do you think would be necessary or close to it if no?

Basically what Pete said.

• Raids scouter while I agree it's OP I wouldn't want to do regular CoX without it.
• Menu Entry Swapper for Bankers specifically. There is a 'Talk' option on the banker that you realistically only use once (to set your pin). It's imo bad design to have it as the first option since most people are there for the 'Bank' option.
• Tile Markers both static and dynamic
  • Static: The marker that sticks on the floor
  • Dynamic: The marker that shows up when you click on a tile because lag is frequent I often 'missclick' on a tile on Steam. It's just better feedback then the Yellow or Red click.
• HP display for NPCs
• Potion Timers - I don't really care about the 'Stats boost' but knowing when your potion (Overload, Divine Potion) expires is to good to miss out on. Easy fix is to just add a notification in chat every 30 seconds and then every 5 seconds once the timer hits 30 seconds. Especially the Divine potion is annoying.
• Better GE tracker like Howl said. Also the Examine option showing the GE value is nice QoL.
• Statistical plugins. RuneLite has the CoX / ToB drop log but also just the regular Drop log, % damage done on Corp, ToB, CoX; this is potential feedback that you can use to improve.

What do you think are the worst features of 3rd party clients that need to go? What is the most damaging?

PvP ones:

• Player / Pile finders
• Seeing people's inventory
• Auto Switcher (both gear and prayer)
• Style Indicators (Highlight mages / rangers / melees differently) 
• Freeze Timers
• 1 click doing multiple actions instantly

PvM ones:

• Auto Prayer switchers (especially for Inferno (Triples / Six Jads specifically)
• Plugins that show blast radius of certain attacks (Shaman Green snot attacks, Xarpus P2 attacks, Olm Crystal Bombs,...)
• Plugins that tell you what to pray (especially for Jads, Olm, Verzik,..)

 

Are you concerned with the J cup coming that clients will have a significant effect on the outcome of certain fights?

I am not concerned because I know for a fact that clients will effect the outcome of certain fights. I have accepted this and while sad I don't care enough about the game anymore to push for a change. Jagex can easily introduce a rule that you HAVE to use the Steam client. I assume that they know that your account is using the Steam Client (because you login through Steam). If they want this cup to have some integrity this is imo the best option. However it wouldn't surprise me that there are 'scientists' figuring out how to introduce any plugin type of things to steam.

[Lavigne 901]

2 hours ago, Adam_ said:

Not sure I was actually aware there was a style detect thing for pvp lmao, though I guess it makes sense since obviously other worse plugins detect it like those that switch pray based on what weapon your opponent has. I knew things were pretty bad with pvp and clients, but it sounds like it may even be worse than some of the shit people use for PvM which i've not really cared for (though one could argue that since this is in direct competition with other players it would be worse regardless) especially since I would imagine the style detect thing isn't bannable either whereas some of the more flamboyant shit people use to basically bot pking for them is. I think perhaps the worst thing is that I imagine it will only get worse until something's done.

Ye if you put a staff on it other clans clients can literally see you're in mage and make you a different colour to mark you out.

[Adam_ 1,034]

15 minutes ago, Da Bazz said:

Do you blame people for using these clients?

No, there's just to much QoL in interfaces not to mention that the Vanilla client performs very poorly.

 

However I do blame people for using any plugins that tells them what prayer to use and where to move. At that point you are just clicking without thinking. I can't understand how people can enjoy the game if they are just clicking where the plugin tells them to. Even if this is just so they can join their friends who put in the time to learn something. Obviously the botting plugins are beyond retarded (like the ones in the videos).

 

I don't agree with using plugins in clans / PvP / speed running etc so you can remain competitive because everyone else uses them. In my opinion this is an indication of shit values and it's sad that players drop their values just to stay competitive. Example Aatykon the speedrunner for ToB / CoX / Inferno was VERY against plugins to boost performance but then started using them as well because he couldn't bare to stay 'left behind'. This behavior to 'be the best at all costs' even at the cost of your own values is very prevalent in the world today especially in the USA.

 

Do you think Jagex should ban 3rd party clients?

Yes and actually invest into their own client. I think / hope they might do that with the Steam client and push that one as the official client. They rewrote it from scratch in a different code base so hopefully it's less fucked and less spaghetti then the Vanilla one. If it is better manageable then I could imagine that the devs may want to work on the client since it's easier to add things. Banning 3rd party plugins will most likely kill their game but this decision not being made is another example of having shit values where the dollar triumphs over anything else that's actually meaningful.

 

How do you find these clients effect your game play?

Do you find yourself using or even depending on them? Or are you someone who perhaps finds themselves getting piled or sniped a bit more often than preferable because the opposing clan can highlight you or use friend finder to find where you are, even in a mess of 100+ people, with very little effort? 

I don't really depend on them since I have been doing fine with Steam for a few months now. However learning new content where positioning is key (ToB, Cox to some degree, Inferno,..) is significantly harder without Tile Markers. I bring this up because I was struggling with ToB and even CoX to some degree when I started using Steam more. I was reluctant at first to use Steam (also because it was super buggy) and used my friends account when doing ToB / CoX. Even now my friends tell me to NOT use Steam because my movement etc is just way less accurate.

 

I think I get piled more or at least die instantly more often then in the past which I blame on clients. But I'm also very bad now and my focus isn't the same as it was as a kid / student (more tired cause work drains my brain also reaction speed may have dropped).

 

What do you think needs to be done to the base client before they ban 3rd party clients? Is it fine now? What features (from runelite or otherwise) do you think would be necessary or close to it if no?

Basically what Pete said.

• Raids scouter while I agree it's OP I wouldn't want to do regular CoX without it.
• Menu Entry Swapper for Bankers specifically. There is a 'Talk' option on the banker that you realistically only use once (to set your pin). It's imo bad design to have it as the first option since most people are there for the 'Bank' option.
• Tile Markers both static and dynamic
  • Static: The marker that sticks on the floor
  • Dynamic: The marker that shows up when you click on a tile because lag is frequent I often 'missclick' on a tile on Steam. It's just better feedback then the Yellow or Red click.
• HP display for NPCs
• Potion Timers - I don't really care about the 'Stats boost' but knowing when your potion (Overload, Divine Potion) expires is to good to miss out on. Easy fix is to just add a notification in chat every 30 seconds and then every 5 seconds once the timer hits 30 seconds. Especially the Divine potion is annoying.
• Better GE tracker like Howl said. Also the Examine option showing the GE value is nice QoL.
• Statistical plugins. RuneLite has the CoX / ToB drop log but also just the regular Drop log, % damage done on Corp, ToB, CoX; this is potential feedback that you can use to improve.

What do you think are the worst features of 3rd party clients that need to go? What is the most damaging?

PvP ones:

• Player / Pile finders
• Seeing people's inventory
• Auto Switcher (both gear and prayer)
• Style Indicators (Highlight mages / rangers / melees differently) 
• Freeze Timers
• 1 click doing multiple actions instantly

PvM ones:

• Auto Prayer switchers (especially for Inferno (Triples / Six Jads specifically)
• Plugins that show blast radius of certain attacks (Shaman Green snot attacks, Xarpus P2 attacks, Olm Crystal Bombs,...)
• Plugins that tell you what to pray (especially for Jads, Olm, Verzik,..)

 

Are you concerned with the J cup coming that clients will have a significant effect on the outcome of certain fights?

I am not concerned because I know for a fact that clients will effect the outcome of certain fights. I have accepted this and while sad I don't care enough about the game anymore to push for a change. Jagex can easily introduce a rule that you HAVE to use the Steam client. I assume that they know that your account is using the Steam Client (because you login through Steam). If they want this cup to have some integrity this is imo the best option. However it wouldn't surprise me that there are 'scientists' figuring out how to introduce any plugin type of things to steam.

I agree with pretty much all of this. I was rather surprised myself to see aaty using certain plugins he hadn't before, most notably the one that hides death animations in the inferno which is a significant time save. I do feel for him to some degree however as pretty much the entire time i've known who he was and followed his content it's often been doing outlandish/unheard of things like the 100 man CM deathless raids or going for the fastest possible time in certain content, and, sadly, the latter is only really possible to remain competitive in were you to use a client. I guess this is kind of what I mean when I say I don't blame people for using it.

 

I also hope they'll look to add some features to the steam client though I think as it stands now there are certain aspects of it even worse than the og client so they've probably got some work to do on it, not to mention I feel like a majority of new players if we retained any from steam release have probably ended up on runelite, and I doubt many to any players who already played the game have decided to stick to the steam client unless they have to (thanks to the login system abuse which we're still waiting on to get fixed :DDDDD), so I feel that could influence their decision on whether or not they decide to put in any real work on it. If nobody's using it, it's probably not the most sound investment on their part, even if they could eventually bring it to a place where it functions well and could even be a decent replacement for some 3rd party clients, the immediate return on investment is all the vast majority of people buying and selling Jagex care about.

 

I remember when they first announced they'd be doing something about clients, myself and a few friends decided to use the vanilla client in case they ended up banning it, as well as being concerned about what plugins may be determined to be bannable and not wanting to risk our accounts. It was quite interesting to say the least though there wasn't a ton I did on it before they made their announcement, tob was certainly interesting, especially the last phase of Xarpus where I didn't have safespots marked anymore. CoX/Inferno like you mentioned are two other things where tile markers I feel are pretty normal and have an effect on game play, so I would honestly hope they'd be integrated into the official client. I didn't really care for inferno for a number of reasons, but I can't imagine how much more I would have disliked it without tile markers, especially for zuk.

 

Pretty much every single plugin you listed I agree should be a feature in the vanilla client. It's actually shocking to some degree to me that scouting still isn't there since it's quite literally the norm for chambers, for people who prefer to stay away from 3rd party clients (I know of a few, though they aren't highly common), I can't imagine how much more frustrating chambers would be. 

 

It also seems like we're pretty well in agreement over what are some of the dumbest plugins out there for both pvp and pvm. And lastly, i'd agree they should enforce a steam client only type thing for the Jcup, and would actually be quite interested to see that take place and have people actually rely on skill instead of plugins. I think it'd make it more interesting and fun to watch, and perhaps even more fun to participate in for those who will be doing so. Here's hoping, but not sure i'm going to hold my breath on that one sadly.

[Adam_ 1,034]

16 minutes ago, Lavigne said:

Ye if you put a staff on it other clans clients can literally see you're in mage and make you a different colour to mark you out.

ye that's genuinely so stupid 

[Kav 134]

Long as it's within reason & equal across styles, like creating a full dhide/coif right click outline option 

I long for the day MBR comes back and we get a plugin for full druidic as well, let all 3 class styles suffer, equally.