D2Master12 - AMA

[Pure Str G40 8]

36 minutes ago, EmaN said:

How much did Ross pay you to write that about him? Don't lie.

Also fuck you Eman

[@True 2k8 3,220]

Did you ever consider unretiring at any point?

[Applerune 121]

On 1/6/2021 at 1:51 AM, Crest227 said:

You say Rob was highly regarded, but I never saw that in my entire time in Corr, if anything Rob was a Paraiah. There would be a group of us playing Tribal wars together, Keith would just openly talk shit about Rob and Tom to us(us being rads, me, magicarrow, da masta420, to name a few. I feel that Corr’s leadership was incredibly clique like. I also felt that I was right at the pinnacle of it’s demise. Rob made another topic flaming people and I took it personally. I called that pussy out on his bullshit. Which resulted in me being guested inmediately by Tom. Right after that, Eric left/removed and it all went downhill from there, Rads to Di. I think you and Lukas were the last ones to be out of the Corruption equation.

 

Which makes me wonder, look at all of us, the people who made Corruption the best clan in the game, all used up and spit out by the biggest retards to ever lead a top clan. Who actually instilled the power to Tom? Why didn’t Keith or Andy over rule that vermin? Why did Corr allow him to implode in my opinion the best clan of all time? 

 

Again, not trying to hijack but D2 actually told me to shed some more light on this:

 

So, obviously what happened with Keith (Chopa234), Demon, Rob, and others is well known. Chopa ended up retiring/quitting because of the Demon-Rob dynamic, but more specifically because Rad didn't get leader. If Rad was leader, Keith would have stuck around. I became very close with Keith over the years and actually got him to come out of retirement once the new guard really started taking over. He really bought into what we were doing and wanted to help. These topics almost feel like we are dunking on Rob, but I don't think that's entirely accurate. You have to understand a few dynamics to really piece this together:

 

Rob is a legend of COR. Universally respected, no matter if - at the time - we each wanted to be prisoners of the moment and let emotions get the best of us. There was a reason Rob was able to disappear for a couple weeks and come back and give advice and it seem heaven sent. It's because of the respect he commanded .... full stop. He was around for a long, long time. It's just unfortunate he couldn't always be active towards the end of his tenure. Right or wrong, that's your answer. 

 

Next, Demon & Rob are Aussie. This only improved their dynamic and pretty much gave Demon an out no matter what. Rob would almost always back him up. HOWEVER, that's not why Demon had so much staying power and influence. It's because every time Demon did something that an official didn't like (Rad, Seifer84, Chopa234, Conditions21) etc., they almost always ended up quitting or retiring. This created an IMPOSSIBLE dynamic for the leadership because it was too easy to say "well, when the going gets tough these people leave and Demon always stays." It was too easy to simply point and say "well I'm loyal and they're not, but you'll back THEM up? Please." Rob & Demon also had an almost identical way of leading the clan - which didn't help.

 

It may sound weak in hindsight but Demon's loyalty is ultimately what kept in charge for so long, with so much influence. COR's instability was Demon's best tool because it allowed him to do as he pleased... you couldn't argue with the guy that had been there through it all. Again, sounds weak a decade plus later, but anyone who was in leadership in a top clan knows this dynamic. It most certainly happened in other clans like DF and VR, but the difference is mostly their officials stuck it out and didn't mass leave. THAT's the difference. 

 

Andy was too passive. A legend, one of the best fall in leaders EVER, but too passive. It's unfortunate because he was never going to be confrontational about certain things... it just wasn't his style. Andy simply didn't care enough. 

 

Chopa and I spoke nearly every single day for years. We have talked about literally every single COR story and dynamic there is and he always said that it just wasn't worth fighting a battle he wasn't going to win. People get tired man, and nobody was going to stop Demon.

[Blue Wall 40]

Very good read.  Our times in the DF/Corr rivalry never really overlapped.  Maybe a few months in 2006, and then you were in VR when I came back to RS later in 2009.  I do remember fighting against you in the crash war, but I never really bothered associating with anyone outside of DF and pretty much just focused on what was going on within the clan even when I got ranked later on, I just focused on our own members and let our warlords and other officials deal with the relationships with other clans/people.

 

Wish I could have fought against you more during your Cor era.  I really wish I had stuck around RS for longer then to experience all that went on during that era of DF in general.

[Kiwi 17]

Interesting read, I do remember you as a person on two different rival clans. I find your section on Corr kind of funny, as Corr basically mass recruited a bunch of people and also lower their regs so Corr Futures could all join in a attempt to push you over DF in 06, which it arguably did for a couple months until DS closed. But after seeing how those people didn't really work out in your next clan you helped create because they weren't skilled enough to really even handle EH, do you think those people would of done much to DF whose member base was basically DF + DS?

 

I'm surprised Demonchild didn't let that happen though, specially after what happened in late 06/early 07 to give Corr the short lived edge over DF.

 

It's kind of hard to put a end to being a "villian" when you're top 2 clans are Corr and VR lol, seemed more like two of you were power hungry then loyal to a cause, things didn't go your way so you dipped. I also think opinions on best Fall in Lines ups are always going to be biased towards you're own memories. As I disagree with yours and would expect others to disagree with mine.

 

I mean no ill will, just my thoughts after reading your op. 

[Kiwi 17]

On 1/5/2021 at 8:52 PM, D2master12 said:

I have a lot of respect in general as a clan, especially from 2007-2009. They were a powerhouse and CoR's biggest rival. CoR vs DF is arguably the best rivalry in the history of the game. 

We were pretty evenly matched for a long time, each clan getting a win over the other from weekend to weekend. When DS closed and a bunch of DS joined DF they were really tough to deal with and had the upper hand on CoR for a while.

I'm probably forgetting people but I created the below list from the DF all officials ever list.

 

Best Fall in leaders/Callers

Flinestoneman - Legend. Great tank and caller. I hated whenever he was leading because he almost always gave DF an upperhand during his spurt. Only Andy4309 could go toe to toe with him. 

Homedawg90 - Another legend here. If I had to name my biggest rival in my era of leading I think it would be Homedawg. He was usually the top guy from DF who I would lead against. He could pick our binders, easy KO's, and tank. Never heard him call on ts but his pile calling in game spoke for itself.

Peterh007 - Probably 1 of the best tanks in the history of the clan world. This guy's account never took damage. He was really experienced too and seemed to always kill more CoR than we killed DF when he was leading. He's a guy who I permanently called using 15%'s on when we piled him because if you didn't he was sure to tank you. 

Lil2 - Another old school guy that was a big part of DF's top fall in rotation. Needs his respect

 

 

People I respected

 

Death240 - Recognized as the founder of DF
Bountyhuntur - one of the leaders of DF
Xshinobizx - elite binder / sniper

Merked05 - elite binder / sniper
Whazaa007 - elite binder / sniper. I tried to avoid this guy at all costs
Omniusha - elite binder / sniper
Veseble - Leader of DF in their prime. Super active and made an impact on the game. VESEBLE VESEBLE VESEBLE

Murray 1991 - good binder / sniper

Iverson35353- good binder / sniper
Runites 12- good binder / sniper
Scotticon- good binder / sniper
The71th- good binder / sniper
Revnak- good binder / sniper
Sitinduck - good binder / sniper
Pokerman2280- good binder / sniper/did a good job when he led too
The Best371- good binder / sniper
Sgt Frank1 - elite sniper and tank. probably should be mentioned in the best tanks in the game

Dennisbruv - made in impact when he played

Ballinboy101- made in impact when he played

Dalejames - could do everything at a high level
Emanpop - elite member
Imlkrsfn2 - elite binder/sniper
Thealth - can do everything for you type of guy. led with him in cor. great member
Chris Z99 - made in impact when he played
Geezerpunk - maybe the first p2p leader to come into f2p? geezerpunk did well in df and was a tough from all aspects calling/sniping/tanking/etc. was relived when he retired from df
Zedest - probably 1 of my favorite people to hate in df. he seemed to do whatever df needed at an elite level. lead/snipe/bind/etc. and was at almost every event
Tacoman55  - pretty much did everything at a high level
Xsdarknessxx- good binder / sniper
Wizardgurl18- good binder / sniper
Grantos07- good binder / sniper
Lilchris1234- good binder / sniper

People I didnt respect

Legolas86880 - Just kind of a weird confrontational guy that caused a lot of shit. i think df got stronger when he retired
Cutekiyaa - i think this was his e girlfriend? didnt really know her but she seemed to support lego's decisions 

Always interesting to see other peoples opinions on the clan. Some surprises, some right on.

[D2master12 52]

5 hours ago, true said:

Did you ever consider unretiring at any point?

Never. Once I was done, I was done.

[D2master12 52]

1 hour ago, Kiwi said:

Interesting read, I do remember you as a person on two different rival clans. I find your section on Corr kind of funny, as Corr basically mass recruited a bunch of people and also lower their regs so Corr Futures could all join in a attempt to push you over DF in 06, which it arguably did for a couple months until DS closed. But after seeing how those people didn't really work out in your next clan you helped create because they weren't skilled enough to really even handle EH, do you think those people would of done much to DF whose member base was basically DF + DS?

 

I'm surprised Demonchild didn't let that happen though, specially after what happened in late 06/early 07 to give Corr the short lived edge over DF.

For anyone who didn't know, CoR futures was a junior clan with 100/105 combat level requirements and CoR was 110+. The intention was to get more numbers and train up members to be ready to fight in CoR. The hope was that CoR would have a steady influx of members coming in from CoR futures. But they weren't really significant and CoR just disbanned the idea. I don't think it had any impact in fights vs DF honestly.

 

In terms of Syndicate, there was about 25 really solid members that could return and fight in the top #3 and about 50 members that had never even been in a top 6 clan before. We got smashed by EH because they started with about 90 people and I think ended with close to 100 on teampseak (we had 70 people starting). EH was a stable #5 clan at the time but were in a bit of a slump. I think that fight actually got them out of it lol. EH at their peak fought in the top 3 maybe a year earlier and they had a lot of quality leaders, members, etc who were still active and Syndicate was no match. In fact I recall EH having victories over CoR and DF in the prime. 

That being said, I don't think the gap between CoR and DF (even after the DS mass joined) was as big as you might remember. I think an influx of even 15 quality members into CoR at that time would have been enough to really challenge DF for the #1 spot. It took the DF (+the mass DS that joined) 10-15+ hours of consistently staying on us to end CoR during those fights. In my opinion, it was clear that DF was better than CoR at that time and we needed to do something to get better because we were still fighting DF sometimes twice a weekend every weekend. Another 15 quality members and even 10-15 shit members would have been worth a try. 

I also understood why Demonchild didn't want them to join though. Some of the people had shady pasts like Kronca who I think stake glitched for a lot of his wealth and kind of had a reputation for being a scammer in duel arena. But if you got to know him he was a really cool guy who just took advantage of a glitch in the game and wanted a second chance. He made over $1b from it in a time when $50m was considered a lot on his first account that got banned (Dark Soljah) so I don't know if you can really hate him for it. I wouldn't have done it, but there's always going to be people who take advantage of the system. 

 

1 hour ago, Kiwi said:

It's kind of hard to put a end to being a "villian" when you're top 2 clans are Corr and VR lol, seemed more like two of you were power hungry then loyal to a cause, things didn't go your way so you dipped.

I think the rivalries in those days were so heated that there will always be hate between rival clans lol. But to me, that is what made the game so much fun and now that it's over I appreciate both sides for being apart of it. Even 10-15 years later a lot of CoR, DF, and VR all messaged me shocked that I would give praise to rival clans.

It's interesting to hear how you took the history (and understandable) but my moves in the clan world were never about power. They were about keeping my interest in the game. Essentially I started in CoR, left to try to keep my interest in the game instead of retiring (which I admit was selfish but still don't regret it) and then ended in VR. Then I felt comfortable retiring in VR when they were on top and had so many top callers that VR's #7 caller could be #3 in DF at the time (had to do it, no ill will ?).

1 hour ago, Kiwi said:

I also think opinions on best Fall in Lines ups are always going to be biased towards you're own memories. As I disagree with yours and would expect others to disagree with mine.

 

I mean no ill will, just my thoughts after reading your op. 

Who are your top 5 callers that were in DF and who are your top 5 non DF callers? I'd be interested to see how accurate my outside view taken just from fighting DF for years.

[Crest227 55]

5 hours ago, Applerune said:

 

Again, not trying to hijack but D2 actually told me to shed some more light on this:

 

So, obviously what happened with Keith (Chopa234), Demon, Rob, and others is well known. Chopa ended up retiring/quitting because of the Demon-Rob dynamic, but more specifically because Rad didn't get leader. If Rad was leader, Keith would have stuck around. I became very close with Keith over the years and actually got him to come out of retirement once the new guard really started taking over. He really bought into what we were doing and wanted to help. These topics almost feel like we are dunking on Rob, but I don't think that's entirely accurate. You have to understand a few dynamics to really piece this together:

 

Rob is a legend of COR. Universally respected, no matter if - at the time - we each wanted to be prisoners of the moment and let emotions get the best of us. There was a reason Rob was able to disappear for a couple weeks and come back and give advice and it seem heaven sent. It's because of the respect he commanded .... full stop. He was around for a long, long time. It's just unfortunate he couldn't always be active towards the end of his tenure. Right or wrong, that's your answer. 

 

Next, Demon & Rob are Aussie. This only improved their dynamic and pretty much gave Demon an out no matter what. Rob would almost always back him up. HOWEVER, that's not why Demon had so much staying power and influence. It's because every time Demon did something that an official didn't like (Rad, Seifer84, Chopa234, Conditions21) etc., they almost always ended up quitting or retiring. This created an IMPOSSIBLE dynamic for the leadership because it was too easy to say "well, when the going gets tough these people leave and Demon always stays." It was too easy to simply point and say "well I'm loyal and they're not, but you'll back THEM up? Please." Rob & Demon also had an almost identical way of leading the clan - which didn't help.

 

It may sound weak in hindsight but Demon's loyalty is ultimately what kept in charge for so long, with so much influence. COR's instability was Demon's best tool because it allowed him to do as he pleased... you couldn't argue with the guy that had been there through it all. Again, sounds weak a decade plus later, but anyone who was in leadership in a top clan knows this dynamic. It most certainly happened in other clans like DF and VR, but the difference is mostly their officials stuck it out and didn't mass leave. THAT's the difference. 

 

Andy was too passive. A legend, one of the best fall in leaders EVER, but too passive. It's unfortunate because he was never going to be confrontational about certain things... it just wasn't his style. Andy simply didn't care enough. 

 

Chopa and I spoke nearly every single day for years. We have talked about literally every single COR story and dynamic there is and he always said that it just wasn't worth fighting a battle he wasn't going to win. People get tired man, and nobody was going to stop Demon.

I totally disagree with your opinion that he was universally respected. The majority of the clan disliked him and you won’t find anyone outside of Corruption that will ever say they respected how Rob conducted himself or even liked him. The only respected thing was his longevity, which I agree with.
 

 

You talk about influence, but when you lose 3 generations of leadership b2b2b, doesn’t that speak about a lack of influence and respect? The leader remains the leader, everyone below him rotates out, doesn’t speak of a lack of leadership? Like you’re trying to portray that everyone else was the issue, they lacked loyalty? Perhaps Rob and Tom were so detrimental that nobody could be bothered to stay and be constantly undermined by them? Oo we’ve fought for ten hours, Toms been here for half an hour and wants to leave, time to end thanks for coming guys! Look forward to a topic in 3 days when Rob decides to grace us with his presence, talking about a lack of dedication from everyone except himself and Tom! Don’t worry about replying, not like Rob will read it or even give a shit. Good talk Rob, see you next month! 
 

I have lots of experience as a member and as a rank in countless clans. Seen it all, literally all of it. I don’t agree with the sentiment that Corr was unique in losing it’s leadership. Vr and Eos had a ton of turnover in the ranks. In terms of Vr, it was what fueled the clan to the heights it achieved, the ambition we had in Vr has only ever been surpassed by Rot. Vr in my opinion had far more mass leavings, slumps, changes in leadership then Corr ever did. Corr kept Rob, Vr lost Stephen, General shop and Viper1500.

 

I sort of agree with your point about Tom being able to outlast everyone, but I’m going to put it another way. Have you considered that he sabatoged everyone and everything he percieved as a threat to his power because he was insecure? I definitely agree Rob was the enabler though.
 

I totally agree about Andy. But this is what aggravates me when I talk about Corr. I can make a list of officials, 80% of them will hate Rob and Tom. Why didn’t they all just get together and drop an ultimatum on them? Listen we run the clan, you guys are inactive and out of touch. We respect the time you put into the clan, but we need you to stop undermining us and the progress we’re making here. We’re the majority, we do all the work, we want your input, we don’t want your interference anymore. Wouldnt’t that of made sense? That’s why I have to believe that the leadership was clique like and fractured, which is what enabled the two weakest people

in leadership to maintain power and ruin the clan. I would even speculate that Tom instigated a lot of it to keep it easier for him to maintain his influence.

[Bunty 47]

Hey man was good talking to you today, even if it was brief as I was getting my ass handed to me at work. Pretty good AMA, can't believe all of the shit you remember... makes my AMA look like late stage alzheimer's.

[Kiwi 17]

1 hour ago, D2master12 said:

That being said, I don't think the gap between CoR and DF (even after the DS mass joined) was as big as you might remember. I think an influx of even 15 quality members into CoR at that time would have been enough to really challenge DF for the #1 spot. It took the DF (+the mass DS that joined) 10-15+ hours of consistently staying on us to end CoR during those fights. In my opinion, it was clear that DF was better than CoR at that time and we needed to do something to get better because we were still fighting DF sometimes twice a weekend every weekend. Another 15 quality members and even 10-15 shit members would have been worth a try. 

I guess this is where we disagree, the DF v Corr fights prior to DS was always close with Corr edging us out. After though, we steamrolled most of the other top 3 until RSD finally stood up to us in BH, and I feel we started to slip to the superior tactics of both TT and RSD in the CWA era, although we could hold our own, we weren't the consensus top clan any longer. Those long fights were generally in my (DF's?) opinion you guys trying to hold on and not roll over because of our rivalry. I honestly don't think an extra 10-15 members would of changed much, when we had PKRI's where we pulled almost double max opts. 

 

Not trying to get into a debate over it, because believe it or not I respect Corr, and I was actually sad the day they closed years later, I'm glad to have been able to be apart of that rivalry. 

 

1 hour ago, D2master12 said:

I think the rivalries in those days were so heated that there will always be hate between rival clans lol. But to me, that is what made the game so much fun and now that it's over I appreciate both sides for being apart of it. Even 10-15 years later a lot of CoR, DF, and VR all messaged me shocked that I would give praise to rival clans.

It's interesting to hear how you took the history (and understandable) but my moves in the clan world were never about power. They were about keeping my interest in the game. Essentially I started in CoR, left to try to keep my interest in the game instead of retiring (which I admit was selfish but still don't regret it) and then ended in VR. Then I felt comfortable retiring in VR when they were on top and had so many top callers that VR's #7 caller could be #3 in DF at the time (had to do it, no ill will ?).

 Yes I very much agree with you here, we may be older now, but I very much still hate Corr lol. Unlike a lot of DF, I never really hated VR that much outside of some shady shit, but I enjoyed my time talking to people like Viper and Cera, we always had fun convos. 

 

That was just my first reaction as I read your original post, Going from Corr who was losing momentum to forming your own clan with big names and when you got beat by a slumping EH struggling to stay relevant in the top 5 you guys just closed it down and jumped ship. I very much think VR was probably a actual home to you and Lukas based on what I remember of you two at the time, but that doesn't stop the "they just want to be the best" thought I had lol. Which is fine, I get that, who wants to be #2. I just felt some much satisfaction being with DF when it was struggling and then seeing the reward of being the best, and it sucked to watch it wither away over the years, but it to me was still worth it.

 

I actually probably respect VR more then most, and I can honestly say I was never DDossed, but I always admired how they basically did what we did. They'd fight above their weight limit, that's admirable. Pre DS infusion, we'd fight anyone including DS fully knowing we were gonna get stomped, basically every Friday we got our asses kicked by DS, and that was a big reason they came to us. Well Vr did the same back then with us, they'd fight us and lose almost every Sunday and sometimes during the week. Weirdly enough DF and Vr were somewhat close back then, We'd let people like Viper in our TS to hang out. 

 

2 hours ago, D2master12 said:

Who are your top 5 callers that were in DF and who are your top 5 non DF callers? I'd be interested to see how accurate my outside view taken just from fighting DF for years.

My top callers all time in DF, hmm. So Flinstonman prolly is on top of the list, with Mini BB, Riku, PeterH, and Merked rounding out the top 5. Our 07 list that featured all plus a very underrated Lilly2 and Homedawg was prolly our best group of fall in leaders at 1 time. I think Peter and Merked were Storm Troppers at that time. 

 

So my memory of other clans fall in leaders is hard to remember unless I see their names, like you I totally forgot you existed until I read your ama lol, but names I do remember would be like 3lite from EH, Bishimo from TT, Firero from RSD, Andy and La Failure (hehe sorry Eric) from Corr, Brian from DI (although I think he was more like Ves in that he wasn't the greatest Fall in leader, but simply the soul of a clan). Cera from VR. Honestly there are some prolly better from each clan if I could simply remember names lol, like I read all the posts here and saw a bunch of the Corr fall in leaders and none of them stayed in my mind from reading to posting this now lol. To much weed in my life to remember stuff that didn't really concern me.  But again, I'm bias as you are, I got to lead with these people learn from Flin, and generally got to know all of the DF warlords and still talk to all of them today, those memories remained with me a decade+ later. Hours of fighting vs Corr, I remember people, those who rocked at leading, those who tanked like champs, those who were annoying sniping even before sniping was as popular as it became to be. I remember TT had some of the best tanks in RS, but who those tanks where, no idea. None of that really concerned that on the days we weren't actively engaged with that clan. Also now that I think back, I do remember you personally being a worthy fall in leader, top 5-10 of the era? Not so much. 

 

Also random fact, I was talking to some chick (from Corr I'd imagine) on MSN Msg (ha remember that?) and she brought Demon into the convo and I swear to god I had no idea who he was lol, He was like I'm the leader of Corr who the fuck are you and I was just like oh I'm DF and then said some shit and my god it was hilarious, I wish I could remember the actual convo but I remember him being a absolute dick to me and I mean I may of deserved it, maybe it was his Egirl or something. But I was just like your the leader of Corr? I did not know that lol. We never talked about Demonchild as leader of Corr in DF, it was Rob and the Rads that in our mind where running the show. 

 

Reading what you said about the disfunction, that was interesting to me, and it makes sense why you left to start your own clan.

[Kiwi 17]

32 minutes ago, Bunty said:

Hey man was good talking to you today, even if it was brief as I was getting my ass handed to me at work. Pretty good AMA, can't believe all of the shit you remember... makes my AMA look like late stage alzheimer's.

I can't even remember people from other clans anymore lol. This dude is out here throwing names from the achieves like it's 2008.

[Applerune 121]

12 minutes ago, Crest227 said:

I totally disagree with your opinion that he was universally respected. The majority of the clan disliked him and you won’t find anyone outside of Corruption that will ever say they respected how Rob conducted himself or even liked him. The only respected thing was his longevity, which I agree with.
 

 

You talk about influence, but when you lose 3 generations of leadership b2b2b, doesn’t that speak about a lack of influence and respect? The leader remains the leader, everyone below him rotates out, doesn’t speak of a lack of leadership? Like you’re trying to portray that everyone else was the issue, they lacked loyalty? Perhaps Rob and Tom were so detrimental that nobody could be bothered to stay and be constantly undermined by them? Oo we’ve fought for ten hours, Toms been here for half an hour and wants to leave, time to end thanks for coming guys! Look forward to a topic in 3 days when Rob decides to grace us with his presence, talking about a lack of dedication from everyone except himself and Tom! Don’t worry about replying, not like Rob will read it or even give a shit. Good talk Rob, see you next month! 
 

I have lots of experience as a member and as a rank in countless clans. Seen it all, literally all of it. I don’t agree with the sentiment that Corr was unique in losing it’s leadership. Vr and Eos had a ton of turnover in the ranks. In terms of Vr, it was what fueled the clan to the heights it achieved, the ambition we had in Vr has only ever been surpassed by Rot. Vr in my opinion had far more mass leavings, slumps, changes in leadership then Corr ever did. Corr kept Rob, Vr lost Stephen, General shop and Viper1500.

 

I sort of agree with your point about Tom being able to outlast everyone, but I’m going to put it another way. Have you considered that he sabatoged everyone and everything he percieved as a threat to his power because he was insecure? I definitely agree Rob was the enabler though.
 

I totally agree about Andy. But this is what aggravates me when I talk about Corr. I can make a list of officials, 80% of them will hate Rob and Tom. Why didn’t they all just get together and drop an ultimatum on them? Listen we run the clan, you guys are inactive and out of touch. We respect the time you put into the clan, but we need you to stop undermining us and the progress we’re making here. We’re the majority, we do all the work, we want your input, we don’t want your interference anymore. Wouldnt’t that of made sense? That’s why I have to believe that the leadership was clique like and fractured, which is what enabled the two weakest people

in leadership to maintain power and ruin the clan. I would even speculate that Tom instigated a lot of it to keep it easier for him to maintain his influence.

Point #1:

 

We'll agree to disagree. I've always been one of those people who've been able to put clan differences aside and drama and show respect to those who deserve it. I was a much more diplomatic clan official than most, so this simply may be a difference in approach. I really cannot think of anyone who would honestly say that Rob isn't universally respected. I didn't really like the way Evizu conducted himself at times (or his methods) but I would never say with a straight face that he wasn't someone who isn't universally respected. People who admit otherwise cannot suppress their teenage feelings of angst. It takes big picture thinking to understand. There were plenty of people that I did not personally like but I respected the hell out of. I cannot speak of Robs level of respect prior to 2008 because I wasn't in the clan then. But I trust the conversations I've had with people named repeatedly on this topic who clued me in on certain dynamics prior to my time as an official in the clan. I was promoted to Council in 2008.

 

I cannot think of people in the clan world that are more universally respected than Ghjjf and Robtokill. Their contributions to clanning are nearly unmatched. As much as it pains 16 year old me to say this, I'd probably add Evizu to that group as well. I have heard a lot about you from old COR officials (both those who left and those who stuck around) and I trust their judgment. This isn't necessarily a poor reflection of you - but I know you clearly hate Rob with a passion and I understand not being able to separate respect from feelings. I was told as much over the years.

 

I have never spoken to a COR official - in public or private - that did not universally praise Rob. They may not have liked the way he conducted himself (at times I didn't) but they always respected his contributions. Some of these officials you and others have named are people who have echoed similar sentiments. Almost everyone would say that they didn't like Rob, but they respected him. Again, agree to disagree, which is totally fine. No harm done. I know you don't like Rob so that's hard for you to admit. 

 

Point #2:

 

Before I address -  if I didn't already make it clear (I believe I did) I never once claimed Rob was the most active person. He wasn't. 

 

You misunderstood my position on the Demon-Rob dynamic. I never once claimed that everyone else was the issue. Far from it. Anyone who has had a serious conversation with me about COR knows that I had my issues with Demon and I do cast a lot of blame for COR being held back on him. I spoke to D2 in private about this earlier and it's so easy to say in hindsight that we should have cut the head off the snake and been done with it.

 

We tried, but we were using a dull blade. It wasn't going to be very successful. It didn't happen until 2010 when I was promoted to leader.

 

In retrospect, I believe Demon was very particular about individuals he promoted. Enzock and Chris1791 come to mind - they were Demon truthers through and through. You really think someone was going to tell Robtokill what to do with his clan? In 2006-07-08? When clan officials and clans actually respected each other? Respected longevity, dedication, etc.? It was a different time and I think you forget that. 

 

Point #3:

 

COR wasn't unique in losing its leadership ranks. Never said that. But it was unique in that it almost always was never able to get those members of leadership to return. If people quit, they were gone forever. If people retired, they were gone forever. It's a different dynamic. All of the leaders that you mentioned in VR returned to the clan later. It's personal opinion, but I also felt that most clans did a much better of internalizing their beef and keeping it together than COR did. Happy to agree to disagree, but COR was a very "you're either in or your out" type of clan. 

 

Also, the sentiment that COR was unique in losing leadership ranks is laughable. Every clan went through it. I almost feel stupid having to clarify that. 

 

Point #4:

 

Of course? That was my entire point about the Rob-Demon dynamic. Couple Demon's sabotage with a COR legend (hence the respected part) in Rob and you have the perfect cocktail to 1) always win arguments and debates against other officials,  2) outlast all of those officials when they've left, and 3) influence the next base of officials when they come. That's literally the entire problem and why it was so hard for the snakes head to be cut off, because the snake had an enabler and the snake promoted people who were most likely to back him up. Look, Rob is a legend and can be universally respected, a good guy, all that, and still be an enabler to Demon. Both of those things can be true. And I have nothing but love for Rob.

 

Point #5:

 

Understand where you're coming from. Glad we agree on Andy. But to your point on why couldn't X do this, or Y do that: the answer is... it's not that easy, and anyone who had a seat at the adult table and was directly responsible in the decisions and outcomes of leading a top 5 clan knows what I'm talking about. With the benefit of hindsight it seems easy. The reality is it isn't. 

[@True 2k8 3,220]

TIL: Need more CoR AMA's

[Crest227 55]

37 minutes ago, Applerune said:

Point #1:

 

We'll agree to disagree. I've always been one of those people who've been able to put clan differences aside and drama and show respect to those who deserve it. I was a much more diplomatic clan official than most, so this simply may be a difference in approach. I really cannot think of anyone who would honestly say that Rob isn't universally respected. I didn't really like the way Evizu conducted himself at times (or his methods) but I would never say with a straight face that he wasn't someone who isn't universally respected. People who admit otherwise cannot suppress their teenage feelings of angst. It takes big picture thinking to understand. There were plenty of people that I did not personally like but I respected the hell out of. I cannot speak of Robs level of respect prior to 2008 because I wasn't in the clan then. But I trust the conversations I've had with people named repeatedly on this topic who clued me in on certain dynamics prior to my time as an official in the clan. I was promoted to Council in 2008.

 

Okay...

 

Everything I’m discussing is prior to you being in Corruption? If Rob was inactive in Cor in 2006-2007(roughly) when I was in it and inactive during your tenure(I’m going to assume this), then from your personal experience, what did Rob do to gain your respect and the respect of the clan world? You heard from word of mouth that 3 years ago he used to be relevant so that’s why he’s respected? Like I’m not trying to be condescending here, but everything I remember about Rob was a fuck up. He got involved with jmods, people started spamming the worlds log ins to riot to fight against Jagex for clan support and then the wilderness was destroyed. Sure, you say Corruption, I say Robtokill. I can acknowledge that, but I definitely don’t respect him, besides his longevity in Corruption, which for years was detrimental to the clans growth, what did Rob do? Did he orchestrate the end of the crash war with Anarchy? Was he the one who put Bjcal into Anarchy to edate Chronic24 and have her spy for Corruption and essentially retire Chronic lol? That might of been Keith lol.

 

 There’s certain facts that can’t be overlooked. Rob never had the care level or spent any time with me personally or any of my best friends in Corr, he was a ghost. He seemed more interested in Zybez then his own clans forums(hypocritical for me to say I know lmao). When I talk about Rob, just like I talk about anybody and I take it seriously, I speak from 1 on 1 interactions or achievements. I’m not anti-corruption, I’m not biased against the clan, I was one of their core members in their prime and I didn’t leave the clan, I got kicked from it by him. Perhaps I’m biased about it sure, but I think I’m more biased at how I saw so

much potential and opportunties squandered by one of the worst clan leaders of all time.

 

37 minutes ago, Applerune said:

 

I cannot think of people in the clan world that are more universally respected than Ghjjf and Robtokill. Their contributions to clanning are nearly unmatched. As much as it pains 16 year old me to say this, I'd probably add Evizu to that group as well. I have heard a lot about you from old COR officials (both those who left and those who stuck around) and I trust their judgment. This isn't necessarily a poor reflection of you - but I know you clearly hate Rob with a passion and I understand not being able to separate respect from feelings. I was told as much over the years.

 

No idea who you would talk to that knows me personally or about my time in Corruption. I think I mentioned it previously that I was an outsider in the clan because of my clan history. Robby Ronal, Andrewdabest, Thomasc420, Magicarrow28, Radcl, 735 Russ, Zacinblack1 and Keith were really the only friends or people that I interacted with daily.

 

Respected more then Ghjjf, no one. Respected more then Rob? How much do you want to read lol? Evizu definitely, Cera S6, I definitely always respected Df leadership more(everyone except lego lmao, lego I would compare to Rob lmao!), King Cj of course, Germs22, Kidefence, livinlarge, Bow even though I really dislike him, Broski, like do I have to list the majority of the clan world, his lordship. Like what are we basing respect on, are we mixing it with being iconic? This is obviously all opinionated and you’re not wrong I’m biased. But I think that all of those individuals listed are strong candidates to be more respected then Rob.

 

37 minutes ago, Applerune said:

 

I have never spoken to a COR official - in public or private - that did not universally praise Rob. They may not have liked the way he conducted himself (at times I didn't) but they always respected his contributions. Some of these officials you and others have named are people who have echoed similar sentiments. Almost everyone would say that they didn't like Rob, but they respected him. Again, agree to disagree, which is totally fine. No harm done. I know you don't like Rob so that's hard for you to admit. 

 

37 minutes ago, Applerune said:

 

Point #2:

 

Before I address -  if I didn't already make it clear (I believe I did) I never once claimed Rob was the most active person. He wasn't. 

 

You misunderstood my position on the Demon-Rob dynamic. I never once claimed that everyone else was the issue. Far from it. Anyone who has had a serious conversation with me about COR knows that I had my issues with Demon and I do cast a lot of blame for COR being held back on him. I spoke to D2 in private about this earlier and it's so easy to say in hindsight that we should have cut the head off the snake and been done with it.

 

We tried, but we were using a dull blade. It wasn't going to be very successful. It didn't happen until 2010 when I was promoted to leader.

 

In retrospect, I believe Demon was very particular about individuals he promoted. Enzock and Chris1791 come to mind - they were Demon truthers through and through. You really think someone was going to tell Robtokill what to do with his clan? In 2006-07-08? When clan officials and clans actually respected each other? Respected longevity, dedication, etc.? It was a different time and I think you forget that. 

 

 

That’s a fair point. Longevity in ranks meant a hell of a lot more then, then it did in the decade that followed. Yeah, some guys hold onto power and never let it go. I do remember how a whole team of officials could agree, but the leader would over rule them. It’s just dissappointing reflecting on it, I hold Keith and Andy in high regards as leaders, it was a shame that out of the 3 of them, the weakest one who was the least involved had all of the power.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Applerune said:

Point #3:

 

COR wasn't unique in losing its leadership ranks. Never said that. But it was unique in that it almost always was never able to get those members of leadership to return. If people quit, they were gone forever. If people retired, they were gone forever. It's a different dynamic. All of the leaders that you mentioned in VR returned to the clan later. It's personal opinion, but I also felt that most clans did a much better of internalizing their beef and keeping it together than COR did. Happy to agree to disagree, but COR was a very "you're either in or your out" type of clan. 

 

Also, the sentiment that COR was unique in losing leadership ranks is laughable. Every clan went through it. I almost feel stupid having to clarify that.

 

 

 

 

Not to be argumenative, but you definitely insinuated that it was unique in the volume of officials it would lose. To quote “ but the difference is mostly their officials stuck it out and didn't mass leave. THAT's the difference. “ Which once again I will disagree with. Vr are the kings when it comes to mass leaves. I’ll drop this point though because we’re just nitpicking at this point.

 

37 minutes ago, Applerune said:

Point #4:

 

Of course? That was my entire point about the Rob-Demon dynamic. Couple Demon's sabotage with a COR legend (hence the respected part) in Rob and you have the perfect cocktail to 1) always win arguments and debates against other officials,  2) outlast all of those officials when they've left, and 3) influence the next base of officials when they come. That's literally the entire problem and why it was so hard for the snakes head to be cut off, because the snake had an enabler and the snake promoted people who were most likely to back him up. Look, Rob is a legend and can be universally respected, a good guy, all that, and still be an enabler to Demon. Both of those things can be true. And I have nothing but love for Rob.

 Percisely, about the relationship and how they used one another to their own means.

 

You’re really trying to make me a believer! I’m sorry, but when I have more respect for La Hire44, then I do for Robtokill, I don’t know what to tell you bro. Like okay, I’ll put Robtokill over Chronic24, he was more respected then Joey! The more I think about it, I think you’re talking about being iconic more then respect. Because I start thinking about General Shop and Stephen22888, do I respect them? Not really, both were/are my friends, but terrible god damn leaders. Iconic? Absolutely, We can go back to Demonic Legends, World 3, Mystic Knights, The Dynasty and others. So I guess it comes down to how do you measure respect? Once again I’ll point to you mentioning you joined Corruption after the wilderness was replaced with Bh. I don’t recall Corr ever coming back from that and being relevant again, nor from my experience which happened prior to yours having Rob active in the clan. Perhaps you had many private conversations with him or some type of insight I don’t which built a respect for the man. He was always just a raging kangaroo asshole to me lol.

37 minutes ago, Applerune said:

Point #5:

 

Understand where you're coming from. Glad we agree on Andy. But to your point on why couldn't X do this, or Y do that: the answer is... it's not that easy, and anyone who had a seat at the adult table and was directly responsible in the decisions and outcomes of leading a top 5 clan knows what I'm talking about. With the benefit of hindsight it seems easy. The reality is it isn't. 

Just to revert to my natural troll self, when Bh was established, Corr lacked the ability to evolve to the climate. Coupled with mass leaves and constant inner turmoil, Corruption to the best of my knowledge was never a top 5 clan from 2008 onwards. Corr slumped, Tt, Eh, Eos, Vr, Df all went on the rise? Di too? Can’t forget Rsd. By 2010, Corruption was barely in the top 10. 
 

Back to being serious though, yeah retrospect is such a bitch lol. It all seems so simple, but when you’re in the moment, emotions hot, it’s totally different. Thanks for the discussion and taking the time to share your thoughts! We agree on the most important parts.